Ruth Ellis

[Islay]

A very good program that was on this week investigating the crime that Ruth Ellis alleged to have committed, her life, her trial and the outcome.
Very good program very eye opening.
Worth a watch to anyone interested in social history.
BBC4 available to download - 3 parts.

[Jackdaw33]

If Evans was totally innocent, why did he allow Christie to carry out an illegal abortion on his wife?

I like the story about Christie. Seemingly when the hangman pinioned his arms behind his back prior to leading him to the gallows he complained that his nose was itchy and he couldn't scratch it. The hangman's reply was, "Don't worry, sir, it won't bother you for long."

[andy-hughes]

jackdaw - // Quite right, NJ. Unlike the Americans they didn't 'fanny around'. If for any reason the sentence could not be carried out within 90 days of being passed the condemned was always reprieved. //

Indeed, and the Americans have managed to take it to the other utterly inhumane extreme.

But my point remains valid, to paraphrase - Execute in haste, exhume and re-bury body at leisure.

[andy-hughes]

Jackdaw - // I like the story about Christie. Seemingly when the hangman pinioned his arms behind his back prior to leading him to the gallows he complained that his nose was itchy and he couldn't scratch it. The hangman's reply was, "Don't worry, sir, it won't bother you for long." //

I am sure you will find that this story is made up.

Firstly, the arms are not secured before the condemned man is led to the scaffold, they are secured as he stands on the trapdoor, arms by the executioner, and simultaneously, legs by his assistant.

Mr Pierpont, the executioner who hung both Christie and Ruth Ellis was justifiably proud of the speed with which he could dispatch the condemned prisoner - his record from opening the cell door to pulling the lever was twelve seconds, hardly enough time for a witty exchange, although he rarely spoke to the condemned prisoner anyway, things moved far too quickly for that.

[andy-hughes]

jackdaw - // If Evans was totally innocent, why did he allow Christie to carry out an illegal abortion on his wife? //

Records show that Evans was of low intelligence, probably around a seven-year-old. He knew he could not afford to have a child, and no doubt Christie presented him with a 'solution' that seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Islay]

The difference is that had they bothered to investigate properly they would have seen that Ellis had help with getting the gun and being 'encouraged' into shooting David.
They did not investigate it- even her statement taken by the policemen at the time was full of holes, the chief inspector quite plainly said because of what she was ' a night club hostess' occasional porn actress etc she was guilty.
Had they investigated it they would not have hanged her but still found her guilty but also her side kick would not have got away scot free!

[jno]

Islay, most condemned women were reprieved, but any appearance of loose morals seems to have militated against that.

[Islay]

Yes jno even before they carried out the execution, more evidence was found that would have helped her but the government refused to stay the execution in order to allow further time.
The knock on effect was that her son ended up committing suicide 25 years later and never really got over what happened.
Her whole family continued to fight tooth and nail to try and get justice for her.

[Garaman]

I doubt the police would have bothered to investigate much further had a man pumped bullets into a woman either. I doubt though that they would still be being criticised for not spending more time finding out why he did it.

[bainbrig]

Tim Evans was innocent. Even the most reactionary minds in our ‘justice’ system now recognise this.

Derek Bentley was innocent of killing. He was judicially murdered.

Any discussion of the death penalty MUST be preceded by a total condemnation of capital punishment, otherwise all other comments are suspect.

BB

[New Judge]

So basically, then, if you support the idea of capital punishment you are not entitled to debate its merits?

[bainbrig]

I think you should change your handle, judge, as whatever you are in real life, in this place you do not show much judicial fairness.

[andy-hughes]

bainbrig - // Any discussion of the death penalty MUST be preceded by a total condemnation of capital punishment, otherwise all other comments are suspect. //

You cannot expect a free and fair discussion if people are bound to preface their view with something they don't agree with - that contravenes the concept of free speech.

[douglas9401]

How very open-minded and inclusive of you, bainbrig.

Now watch you don't make a mess on the rug with your bleeding heart.

[Pete65]

I read Albert Pierrepoint's biography, "Executioner Pierrepoint".
There was quite a bit of the book devoted to his executioner training at Pentonville Prison.
It is quite clear in the book that the condemned prisoner had his/her arms pinioned in the death cell, by the executioner, before being taken to the gallows.
This practice never varied.

[andy-hughes]

Pete - I have also read that biography, my memory may well be faulty.

However, if you watch the film '10 Rillington Place', I am sure the pinioning is done on the trap itself, and I am sure that Mr Pierpont was proud of his speed in execution, and I am sure than pinioning in the cell and then walking the prisoner to the trap, securing his legs, putting on the hood and pulling the lever, would take more than the agreed twelve seconds.

[andy-hughes]

Pete65 - I have done a bit of research, and I am happy to stand corrected - pinioning was done in the cell prior to the walk to the trap.

However, I stand by my assertion that jackdaw's Christie story is a grisly joke, there would not have been time for such a witty exchange, even if the executioner was prone to gallows (!) humour, which all indications suggest that he was not - he took his duties very seriously, and did not indulge in dialogue with the condemned men and women he dispatched.

[Pete65]

Andy, I believe the Christie anecdote to be untrue, too!
There was a claim by an assistant executioner, Syd Dernley, that one execution that he took part in with Pierrepoint took only seven seconds.
The prisoner almost ran to the drop!

[Peter Pedant]

also in cross examination,
the crown prosecutor (*) asked her one question only
when you pumped six bullets into Johnny Halliday ( or whomever ) did you mean to kill him ?

and Ruthie - a good girl really - said yes

and then he sat down

there has been a discussion here today on circumstantial evidence - ( " isnt all evidence - which is people saying stuff - circumstantial?" ) - in which case yuou will agree that this circumstantial evidence is pretty strong.

(*) Mr later Justice Melford "Mel", "Melmel" " good old Melly" "Hang'em High Mel" "Hanger Mel" "Killer Mel" Stevenson - for it was he
after abolition he still used to keep his black cap ( useful for passing capital sentences now abolished ) in his case

[Peter Pedant]

Pinioning was done in the cell - sort of obvious if you think about it. the wardrobe moved and out they popped...

Douglas Home the brother of the prime minister who was hanged for cowardice/treason had planned to say Mr Pierrepoint i have always wanted to meet you but not in this ....
and only got as far as - "I have always ...."
and held out his hand - so pinioning was easy .....