Jimmy Saville

[sp1814]

Think of it this way...Jimmy Saville.

Whilst he was alive, he raised about £40m for Stoke Mandeville Hospital. He was a hero. A national treasure. He earned an O.B.E.

Then he was knighted.

If in the 1970s, Stoke Mandeville decided to erect a statue in honour of him, knowing what we now know - isn’t it understandable that people would want it removed?

Wouldn’t the children of those that Saville abused not want to see a public monument to him?

[douglas9401]

Not doing whataboutery today.

[naomi24]

Yes, it would be understandable to want it removed. He was a criminal.

[Mozz71]

Sp, I used him as an example of disconnecting an establishment from someone connected with them, but this is ridiculously out of proportion if you're defending the statue destroyers.

You don't build statues to people like Savile, and any which might have existed, have long since gone. Even his gravestone was removed.

He's not comparable to Edward Colston or Thomas Guy.

[tiggerblue10]

Was a statue for him ever commissioned? I would hope not.

[Sqad]

SP1814 Oddly enough I was thinking about you as I hadn't seen you post recently.
Nice to see you back.
Statues? I just don't understand modern life as we know it, so I will refrain from commenting.

[jim360]

It could be that we were lucky to discover Savile's disgusting past before anybody could get around to putting up too many monuments in his honour. It's purely hypothetical, but imagine if we were having the conversation about what to do with statues of Savile in 50 years' time. Would it have been so easy to remove them? Hopefully, yes, but does the passage of time have a contribution to this discussion? What makes Savile not comparable to Colston/Guy?

[sp1814]

Mozz71

Not defending statue destroyers, but I think it's useful to get into their mindset. It's easy to think that people who disagree with you are wrong, but there's value in trying to work out where they're coming from.

I'm not comparing Saville to Guy or Colson - I'm comparing the way that they are perceived.

[sp1814]

Sqad

Cheers..although I'm not really 'back'. Been swamped with work over the past few months, hence...

[aelmpvw]

https://newstoad.net/2020/06/08/basingstoke-protesters-topple-jimmy-saville-statue/

[naomi24]

//What makes Savile not comparable to Colston/Guy? //

The first was a criminal, the others never.

[Peter Pedant]

comes in phases

Sculpture: Zimbabwe House - Epstein
Don’t believe Wikipedia when it says that "the mutilated condition of many of the sculptures has nothing to do with prudish censorship". Any decay in the stone could easily have been repaired but it served as a convenient pretext for the effective removal of the sculptures.

I thought the London public were so outraged by their obvious sexuality that they climbed up and hurled them down !

(hx BMA hse then Rhodesia Hse then Zombabwe Hse_

[mushroom25]

// The first was a criminal //

isn't it innocent until proven guilty in UK law? and Mr Saville was never brought to court, never mind convicted? (unless of course, you know different.....)

[jim360]

If only you'd bothered to read my post in the "what if they don't" thread, where I addressed that point.

[tiggerblue10]

Personally, I think statues are an outdated way of commemorating figures now. And a waste of much needed space. Maybe just stick to a plaque on a wall from now on.

There is still a statue of Oliver Cromwell outside the House of Commons, erected in 1899. He signed the death warrant of Charles I, bringing down the monarchy in 1649.

[royfromaus]

Unfortunately there was a time in our history when slavery was accepted. I can't ever remember reading about a time in our history when peadophilia was accepted.

Have you got a link?

[Mozz71]

//What makes Savile not comparable to Colston/Guy?//

The fact you even ask that question is a worry.

Colston and Guy, both acted legally, and their actions are only (correctly) frowned upon given the passing of many years. Different times, different sensibilities.

Savile (allegedly, although virtually beyond doubt) perfomed absolutely heinous crimes in modern times. It's chalk and cheese.

[Peter Pedant]

// //What makes Savile not comparable to Colston/Guy? //

In late 2012, almost a year after his death, reports surfaced that Savile had sexually abused hundreds of individuals throughout his life, with alleged male and female victims, ranging from prepubescent to adult.

not convicted - had to look that one up
so you can be a criminal without a conviction - yeah yeah typical day on AB

[Prudie]

"I'm not comparing Saville to Guy or Colson - I'm comparing the way that they are perceived."
That's exactly the way I understand you are trying to defend what's happening at the moment. I've been chewing over this post and had decided not to comment but your last post changed my mind - I have read that you are saying Churchill etc are as bad as Saville, no wonder all their statues should be removed. But then apparently I'm likely to be in the mob of thick Aryans that inhabit AB.

[jim360]

I might say that the fact you find it worrying is a worry. Morality cannot be defined purely by what is and isn't legal.

[naomi24]

mushroom, indeed. If that's the yardstick by which we're deciding there's no reason to pull down statues of him either.