How do you put a value to someone's life?

[LaLaLand2006]

This article has appeared in my local newspaper today... http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/displayNode. jsp?nodeId=133965&command=displayContent&sourc eNode=133948&contentPK=14723909&moduleName=Int ernalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch Are we really a society that judges a persons "value" in such a harsh, judgemental way... Whatever your views, yes she did some bad things in her life, but she didn't exactly have an easy start, middle.... and had an even nastier end to it. There's a few high profile politicians, football managers, priests etc etc that I can think of that haven't exactly led a moral life (and not to mention kept their high paid jobs) but I'm damn sure there would be an outcry if a similar decision was made should they be murdered in cold blood. Is there a sliding scale somewhere (�1m for a doctors life.... but anyone who's led a "socially unacceptable" life... well they're worth nothing. Moral point-scoring? I'm appalled.

[Oneeyedvic]

Can't help but wonder - is the reverse true as well - ie if you killed a politician you would get paid?

[kazza12345]

if the convictions she had were not spent, then maybe they added up to fines totalling the amount he had applied for, and had she lived, the justice system would be 11000 pounds better off. I notice that the paper dosen't say what her crimes were - maybe they did include assault/mugging, as we only have her dad biased word for it that they didn't. I may seem like a cow but i actually agree with the essense of the article. I think people who have lead a morally clean life are worth more to society than people who have been on drugs and committed crimes

[dayoff]

dont see why the cash cant be paid to her kids after all they have not commited any crime and at the end of the day they have lost there mum as for cica they try allsorts not to pay out iam still waiting 4 years after i was attacked

[noxlumos]

Well I'm appalled too. She is not the one getting the money, her children are, so it shouldn't matter if she was akin to Ronnie Biggs, she is not profiting in any way from her crimes, she's dead for God's sakes. As for the morally superior who post that her life is indeed worth less than a "clean living person", there but for the grace of God go you, and most clean living people i've encountered are nowhere near as clean once you have a good look at them. Everyone has skeletons in their cupboards whoever they are. The thing that really makes me sick is that when her two little kids grow up understandably with no respect for authority and grow into criminals with a great big hateful chip on their shoulders, everyone will probably put it down to their defective criminal tendancies that they doubtless inherited from their mother rather than the real reason which will be that society turned it's back on them when they were in need and made them feel they were the product of someone worthless. Time we placed people above money for a damned change and stopped creating problems for the future. I'm truly appalled.

[LaLaLand2006]

She was tortured then killed by a man who wanted to be Nottingham's first serial killer.

Well Ward~Minter... to say "the world is better off without her"... well words fail me. Actually they don't, I could go on here for hours talking about why someone ends up on the streets "living like an animal", selling their bodies. but what would be the point. Homelessness is a symptom of someones problems, not the problem.

I also find it quite disturbing that you say - the victim "perhaps" didn't deserve to be killed.... there's no perhaps about it. But hey, one less "scumbag" to worry about hey.....

And as noxlumos says, everyone has skeletons in their closet. My point was about how we calculate someone's worth (or not in this case).... even if she did have outstanding fines, is it fair that the kids don't get a mere �11,000 pounds between them.

[LaLaLand2006]

PS, I've just seen that Mr W~M has a habit of posting this kind of right wing bile... is it a hobby? Have you never thought of trying Sudoku? Jigsaws? A nice calming walk in the country?!

[noxlumos]

Shut up wardy, there are those people here who are still too tender in answerbank time to realise that you don't mean a sodding word of it and only post like that for effect.

[joko]

I agree with Noxy.

I think in these instances they should put the money into a trust fund themselves for the kids when they are 18, then there is no danger of the money not going to them.

I suppose in some ways is similar to when someone dies and their assets are used to pay anything owed and fees etc. in this case this woman appeared to owe a lot of money - and unfortunately it is coming back on her family.

[LaLaLand2006]

Yeah I suppose you're right joko, I suppose it's a similar situation. I guess when it's such an awful situation like this it's going to get lots more publicity. What do people think about that... maybe the bigger question is if someone dies in debt, should their assets are used to pay this off - or should the debts be written off?

PS, thanks noxlumos. I've learnt my lesson with W~M, not going to rise to him anymore!

[cardiacbleed]

so children should be punished for their parents mistakes? drug addiction is an illness, like alcohol, gambling etc etc....i'm all for helping people that help themselves but sometimes it takes a while before people can accept help.. if drugs were responsible for her actions, perhaps we as a society should be more willing to address drug rehabilitation as a matter of crime prevention and social care...afterall would she have been their without drugs? who knows but i think it may have prevented her from acting criminally to feed a habit and perhaps led to her to ultimately her death

Is it inconceivable that people are able to change but that they need help?

perhaps it was the lack of help from society that kept her into this situation, and in all honesty looking at some of the posts here you can see the lack of compassion that exists in sections of the community! so before you make sweeping judgments on what her criminal acts were and why this should effect the children she left behind ask yourself can you truly write off a person as easily as you seem to have done without any sense of understanding why it happened?

[cardiacbleed]

minty, thats where your liberal politics come in...lol you think you're a liberal? because you gave up caffeine you can appreciate what crack and smack are like to quit!! you really are a love

i use the term illness because of the physical symptoms it produces , not only the debilitating physical symptoms from long term abuse caused by administering these substances but also the withdrawal when trying to give up, of course the mental illness side of addiction then comes into play effecting rational thought, so yes i deem that to be an illness..

the fact you can't get over that because someone administers the drug themselves for the first time then thats it, write them off, well thats you problem minty i'm sure in your world with your frequently referred to BUPA health care policy its as black and white as that, i won't bother with name calling as you do minty, it shows a lack of articulation and poor debating skills so i'll leave you to fill in your own bile there, but suffice to say i do not hold your views and i think you're incorrect, no one starts out wanting to be a junkie...

you have previously admitted you are never wrong so i imagine it's difficult to consider someone else makes mistakes which might lead to remorse and asking for help..

so how do you feel if someone else forced them into it, for example a pimp looking to recruit prostitutes...ohh well thats their fault as well isn't it, i mean they shouldn't be vulnerable or naive?? not so long ago you advocated killing a few innocents to achieve your aims was just...i think most people know where you stand

[WaldoMcFroog]

Can you get a soul on BUPA, WM? If so, please apply.

[noxlumos]

I'm now going to spout my two pennyworth from personal experience and I'm horrified to say that as an ex-drug addict myself and person who had a heavy drink problem in some ways Ward~minter is right. I'm not at all unaware that society produces circumstance whereby the vulnerable get onto hard drugs and I strongly believe that the best way to combat that is to address poverty, lack of education and general social deprivation, BUT he's right about the free choice. It was no-one's fault but mine that I took drugs. My choice, my call, my neediness if you like and it was only me that could stop it. I am not denigrating drug abusers, God knows how hard it is to quit and I think that everyone's life is a worthy and valid as everyone else's and the point is that we have to work harder to give kids a sense of worth and of individuality so that it's easier for them to see a way out of negative social situaitons and therefore make them less likely to turn to drugs to prop themselevs up in a life that they niether want nor deserve.The weak and vulnerable will always be prey to the strong and unethical and that will never change, but what we can do is improve things socially and make it easier for people who are addicts to quit as where I was there was very little help available. The constant negative stereotyping of drug addicts is not helpful to them quitting and it's wrong to write people off because they have/had an addiction which with the right circumstances they could quit, they need positive reinforcement to make the choice to quit that ward~minter refers to yet the ability to be kind and compassionate as a society towards people who have made mistakes seems to allude us to our own detriment.