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The book of Revelation
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I was brought up a Catholic but upon reaching adulthood I have become an Atheist. Im now approaching my late 20's and am confused. I beleive that Jesus exsisted and was a very wise man. I don't beleive certain excerpt's from the bible ie the whole walk on water thing and so on. Anyway, I recently read the book of revelation from the old testiment and I'm curious, alot of what it says corresponds with disasters that the world has experienced over time for instance the twin towers and the tsunami. What does it all mean? I feel that I believe some things and not others. And also it mentions about the devil and the 6th day and the 6th hour etc?
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Yes a very interesting topic. Althougha Christian, i am not devout, but i also take on board what history has to offer in respect of written documentation from the period outside of the bible. For instance, some scholars beleive that Jesus did in fact exist, but was a member of a kind of terrorist group to the Roman occupation. Not a terrorist in the case of murders etc, but holding mass meeting of Jews (Remember that Jesus was a Jew!) and defying the local authorities that supported the Roman oppression of his people.
With regard to his miracles, i had a fantastic RE teacher at high school who did not say 'they were miracles the end', he provided alternatives that have been exaggerated when written down. Example, the feeding of the five thousand, Jesus probably fed a lot of people with the Fish and Bread by making a soup etc. Water to wine, he probably added some fermented yeast or whatever. All his miracles can be explained as he did nothing that was is impossable to explain such as lead to gold, or vise versa! (his walking on water again an exaggeration, it was low tide, and from the distance it looked like he was walking on water)
A lot of things featured in the Revelations are non specific. There has always been and always will be Tsunami's (Such as the one that destroyed the Mongol fleet attempting to invade Japan), Earthquakes,Volcanic eruptions etc. Destruction of cities and buildings again are nothing new in the history of mankind. Does it mention computers?cars?space travel?
My dad always said that Jesus was a conman and performed tricks (just think an evil David Blaine) but his final trick (resurrection) went wrong and he contracted gangrene or similar virus and died in hiding. Interesting theory me thinks!!!
With regard to his miracles, i had a fantastic RE teacher at high school who did not say 'they were miracles the end', he provided alternatives that have been exaggerated when written down. Example, the feeding of the five thousand, Jesus probably fed a lot of people with the Fish and Bread by making a soup etc. Water to wine, he probably added some fermented yeast or whatever. All his miracles can be explained as he did nothing that was is impossable to explain such as lead to gold, or vise versa! (his walking on water again an exaggeration, it was low tide, and from the distance it looked like he was walking on water)
A lot of things featured in the Revelations are non specific. There has always been and always will be Tsunami's (Such as the one that destroyed the Mongol fleet attempting to invade Japan), Earthquakes,Volcanic eruptions etc. Destruction of cities and buildings again are nothing new in the history of mankind. Does it mention computers?cars?space travel?
My dad always said that Jesus was a conman and performed tricks (just think an evil David Blaine) but his final trick (resurrection) went wrong and he contracted gangrene or similar virus and died in hiding. Interesting theory me thinks!!!
Definatley. Thank you tiggergirlr. My partner thinks along the same lines as you, however he thinks it could be possible that perhaps how we read and view the bible is alot different to how it should be perceived because back in those days they had a completely different way of talking and writing so it may be that things like the walking on water and making a blind man see don't actually mean what we think they mean! like a code I guess. Stay with me here, I'm not trying to go down the lines of conspiracy theories or anything but could that be a possibility?
I read an excerpt from one of the dead sea scrolls once and it's stayed with me since: 'the kingdom of god is in you and all around you, lift a stone and I am there, split a peice of wood and you will find me' I've been told Jesus was also a pagen, is that true?
I read an excerpt from one of the dead sea scrolls once and it's stayed with me since: 'the kingdom of god is in you and all around you, lift a stone and I am there, split a peice of wood and you will find me' I've been told Jesus was also a pagen, is that true?
It doesn't read as low tide to me !
And a gangrenous conman called Jesus died in hiding.
This does not explain the dramatic change in the behaviour of the disciples after the 'bogus' resurrection. Weary and demoralised after the crucifixion, something happened to transform them to go and spread the news, even to the point of dying for their beliefs. Nobody dies for something they know to be an invention.
Why, with all the hoo-hah in Jerusalem going on, did the authorities simply not produce the body ? Why did the invented religion permit women to discover the body - women were considered unreliable witnesses.
So much more, but sorry not really addressing your question !
I happen to believe he did walk on the water, and it's quite a pleasant thought.
Which bits do you believe by the way, I am interested.
Best wishes.
And a gangrenous conman called Jesus died in hiding.
This does not explain the dramatic change in the behaviour of the disciples after the 'bogus' resurrection. Weary and demoralised after the crucifixion, something happened to transform them to go and spread the news, even to the point of dying for their beliefs. Nobody dies for something they know to be an invention.
Why, with all the hoo-hah in Jerusalem going on, did the authorities simply not produce the body ? Why did the invented religion permit women to discover the body - women were considered unreliable witnesses.
So much more, but sorry not really addressing your question !
I happen to believe he did walk on the water, and it's quite a pleasant thought.
Which bits do you believe by the way, I am interested.
Best wishes.
I think that I believe certain things in the bible happened but not in the way many believe them to have happened. I say this because, going back to the walking on water. This would have been a miracle. I mean it can't be plausable, a man actually walking on water or making a blind man see. I can only conclude that when the bible was written it was written in the context of the day which is alot different to today so could what we construe to be one thing, be something else completely Whiffey? It's such a complex subject.
mountainboo, regarding walking on the water. The account makes it clear that the boat was way out in the lake and there was a storm with large waves. When Peter got out of the boat to have a try he sank. This is not a low tide.
You may choose not to believe this, but looking for plausibility in the life of putatively God on earth is always going to be disturbing.
Also, many claim that Christianity is a cruel invention, a political hoax. I just can't see why Saul of Tarsus would suddenly one day go blind then decide to change his name to Paul and invent a religion. It's too Eddie Izzard.
Fascinating subject, I must shut up !
You may choose not to believe this, but looking for plausibility in the life of putatively God on earth is always going to be disturbing.
Also, many claim that Christianity is a cruel invention, a political hoax. I just can't see why Saul of Tarsus would suddenly one day go blind then decide to change his name to Paul and invent a religion. It's too Eddie Izzard.
Fascinating subject, I must shut up !
I think you must bear in mind that most of (ancient) history was hearsay and fireside story-telling, and no doubt this would have led to exaggerations and embellishments along the way, right up to when the stories were written � in this case some 200 years after Jesus lived.
Stories told by the camp-fire would mainly have involved great warriors who fought a thousand men single-handedly (Ramses would have you believe that he beat entire armies by himself) or challenged and defeated some extremity of internal torment and/or fire-breathing/statue turning monster. Although often there may be some basis in fact and truth, they would be embellished to make the fables more interesting and I think this is clearly evident in the Bible, as well as many other ancient text (Homer etc).
Stories told by the camp-fire would mainly have involved great warriors who fought a thousand men single-handedly (Ramses would have you believe that he beat entire armies by himself) or challenged and defeated some extremity of internal torment and/or fire-breathing/statue turning monster. Although often there may be some basis in fact and truth, they would be embellished to make the fables more interesting and I think this is clearly evident in the Bible, as well as many other ancient text (Homer etc).
Of course, the other certainty that I neglected to mention above is the notion that through thousands of years of copying, transcribing and translating. The scribes would have copied historical notes/letters etc and added their own embellishments. Along with all this you will have a number of un/intentional mistranslations which all add to what we are left with today.
Generally, Octavius, you are accurate and present a soundly defined argument. However, in both of your most recent posts, you've missed that mark. Sound scholarship supports the writing of Revelation by the Apostle John whle he was imprisoned on the island of Patmos somewhere around 90A.D. Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, p. 308) (A.D.. 139�161) quotes from the Apocalypse, as "John the apostle�s work." The internal evidence also supports this date and authorship. Secondly, excellent scholarship simply doesn't support you contention of error filled translation and scribal additions. For example, portions of John's Gospel are found in your own British Museum is the John Rylands papyrus fragment 52 of John's gospel dated in the year 135 contains portions of John 18:31-33, 37-38. This fragment was found in Egypt and a considerable amount of time is needed for the circulation of the gospel before it reached Egypt. It is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's. it reads, word for word, the same as the Gospel you can now hold in your hand. This same profound accuracy can be demonstrated for the entire Old and New Scriptures. Textual comparison and criticism clearly show that the most ancient copies faithfully compare to today's examples.
Contd.
Contd.
Contd.
Recent studies in ancient Jewish culture have conclusively demonstrated that the ancient Jews (which would include Yeshua's disciples) were able to memorize vast amounts of material, and it was customary for a student to memorize their rabbi's teaching. The students regarded their teacher's words as "sacred tradition" and memorized them in detail to pass on with little or no alteration. It was said that a good pupil was "like a plastered cistern who looses not a drop." Surely Yeshua's disciples, who were Jews living in this culture, would have given the teachings of the one whom they considered to be God's long awaited Messiah no less care!
The New Testament record confirms this, often displaying the Jewish concern for passing on oral tradition accurately (1 Cor. 15:3-8; Gal. 2:1-10; Col. 2:7; 1 Cor. 11:23). These aspects all show that Yeshua's disciples (and their followers) had both the ability and the desire necessary to pass on, and eventually record, His teachings without distortion.
Further, when Yeshua's teachings are translated back into their underlying Aramaic, the original language He most likely spoke, they often reveal a rhyming cadence very suitable for memorization. This means that Yeshua's words were in a form that was easy to memorize and retain.
Finally, the gospels, which record the teachings of Yeshua, were written while there were still many living eyewitnesses who were hostile to Christianity. False statements could, and would, have been challenged. The fact that the gospels gained such wide acceptance is very strong evidence for their reliability.
Recent studies in ancient Jewish culture have conclusively demonstrated that the ancient Jews (which would include Yeshua's disciples) were able to memorize vast amounts of material, and it was customary for a student to memorize their rabbi's teaching. The students regarded their teacher's words as "sacred tradition" and memorized them in detail to pass on with little or no alteration. It was said that a good pupil was "like a plastered cistern who looses not a drop." Surely Yeshua's disciples, who were Jews living in this culture, would have given the teachings of the one whom they considered to be God's long awaited Messiah no less care!
The New Testament record confirms this, often displaying the Jewish concern for passing on oral tradition accurately (1 Cor. 15:3-8; Gal. 2:1-10; Col. 2:7; 1 Cor. 11:23). These aspects all show that Yeshua's disciples (and their followers) had both the ability and the desire necessary to pass on, and eventually record, His teachings without distortion.
Further, when Yeshua's teachings are translated back into their underlying Aramaic, the original language He most likely spoke, they often reveal a rhyming cadence very suitable for memorization. This means that Yeshua's words were in a form that was easy to memorize and retain.
Finally, the gospels, which record the teachings of Yeshua, were written while there were still many living eyewitnesses who were hostile to Christianity. False statements could, and would, have been challenged. The fact that the gospels gained such wide acceptance is very strong evidence for their reliability.
I've read this thread with mounting interest. To add to the mix here are a few observations
Why couldn't Jesus have made the blind see? We do it all the time in this day and age - figuratively speaking someone with cataracts is blind, but they can be removed and sight restored.
Feeding the five thousand? how about this for an answer - someone offered up their loaves and fishes, which in turn prompted others to offer the food they had brought. think about it for a minute. Human nature says share my stuff with all this lot? not likely! but then you realise that loads of other people have brought along stuff and suddenly everyone is sharing and it's one big picnic. The miracle comes through the fact that someone was kind enough to start the ball rolling.
I've walked on water, right across a frozen lake in Norway
bring someone back to life? CPR
make the lame walk? remove foriegn object from sole of foot, ease the symptoms of gout
water into wine? think of cordials, adding herbs etc
I'm not saying these weren't miracles - whether they were is a matter of interpretation
Why couldn't Jesus have made the blind see? We do it all the time in this day and age - figuratively speaking someone with cataracts is blind, but they can be removed and sight restored.
Feeding the five thousand? how about this for an answer - someone offered up their loaves and fishes, which in turn prompted others to offer the food they had brought. think about it for a minute. Human nature says share my stuff with all this lot? not likely! but then you realise that loads of other people have brought along stuff and suddenly everyone is sharing and it's one big picnic. The miracle comes through the fact that someone was kind enough to start the ball rolling.
I've walked on water, right across a frozen lake in Norway
bring someone back to life? CPR
make the lame walk? remove foriegn object from sole of foot, ease the symptoms of gout
water into wine? think of cordials, adding herbs etc
I'm not saying these weren't miracles - whether they were is a matter of interpretation
Genesis suggests Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldees. This is commonly thought to be Ur in modern Iraq, where the Chaldeans once lived. The trouble is, it's pretty clear the Chaldeans didn't live there until centuries after Abraham's time. So this looks very much like the sort of embellishment of the text that Octavius mentions: some later editor added the phrase 'of the Chaldees' to make the location clearer - and got it wrong. Some people today think Ur was actually the modern town of Urfa (or Sanliurfa) in Turkey - where, sure enough, you can see the cave in which Abraham was said to have been born, and other Bible-related places. (Turkey is Islamic, of course, but they have the same traditions.)
I don't say either is provably right, but it seems clear that Biblical texts were indeed subject to misunderstandings and mistranscriptions. The texts were edited by men, not deities.
I don't say either is provably right, but it seems clear that Biblical texts were indeed subject to misunderstandings and mistranscriptions. The texts were edited by men, not deities.
Hi samuel, and everybody,
It all of course boils down to what we believe. I believe a lot of things that cause people to think I am not quite there. I have not seen any convincing arguments that the Gospels are rubbish. Accordingly I take at face value what they say. I don't try to check them out in scientific textbooks all the time.
In terms of my own personal life I just wish I could one day walk that road to Damascus and see what Saul saw. Lucky man.
It all of course boils down to what we believe. I believe a lot of things that cause people to think I am not quite there. I have not seen any convincing arguments that the Gospels are rubbish. Accordingly I take at face value what they say. I don't try to check them out in scientific textbooks all the time.
In terms of my own personal life I just wish I could one day walk that road to Damascus and see what Saul saw. Lucky man.
I think I would agree with most of what you state jno with the exception of two of your inclusions... the first being the use of the word"embellishment" as a pejorative... I think it's more realistic to understand a later writer, as you infer, simply wished to clarify which Ur was referenced, since there were several and by 400 to perhaps 800 B.C. the Chaldeans were prominent in the Babylonian Ur. Secondly, your statement that "...they got it wrong..." extensive, qualified scholarship and on site investigaiton indicates the probablility of the Babylonian Ur as being the one referenced in Genesis (as well as Nehemiah 9:7)...
space doesn't permit a full presentation of the evidence, but here a link to a well written document supporting the Babylonian location: http://fontes.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/Ur.ht m
space doesn't permit a full presentation of the evidence, but here a link to a well written document supporting the Babylonian location: http://fontes.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/Ur.ht m
I would offer whiffey that each believer has had a Damscus Road experience... maybe not so dramatic, but a conversion nevertheless. What I would desire, in my spirit man, would be the experience Paul had while spending the 3 years in the Arabian desert (Galatians 1:17) following his meeting with the risen Lord. Yeshua, through the Spirit of God taught Paul all the great truths he imparted to us in the writings he left...
Clanad, I didn't mean embellishment to be pejorative, just factual. I also said I am not qualified to decide which Ur was right, my point being merely that the text was edited, and edited misleadingly, because Abraham did not come from a Chaldean city.
I must say, though, my own personal view is that Urfa makes more sense, when you look at a map: Leaving Urfa to head south to the coast seems a more plausible step than leaving Ur and heading off into the desert. But I'll concede - before you even mention it! - that this isn't exactly conclusive.
I must say, though, my own personal view is that Urfa makes more sense, when you look at a map: Leaving Urfa to head south to the coast seems a more plausible step than leaving Ur and heading off into the desert. But I'll concede - before you even mention it! - that this isn't exactly conclusive.
I am a Christian and learned other religion as well. It is confusing when you read and heard both negative and positive things about Jesus, we all want proof and some people even said unless we see it we do not believe it. I do choose to believe in Him because :
The apostles life was one of the proof - they die because of their faith - they were not just have blind faith - they were life witnesses.
What Jesus teach is why I choose to believe in Him. It help me to be a better person, help me to be positive, help to help others, help me to achieve things in life.
I also do believe in His miracles. We might not be able to descript it with logic, but that is the thing, If His actions all can be rasionalized, then he would be just a man.
If you want to start, read the gospel, about what he teach the paradoxes etc,
Remember mind is very powefull but there is God (higher power) which could help you, Ask then you will get the answer.
Learning about God is not just learning about history and fact, It is about mind and soul as well. One human soul is worth more than tens o thousand animals.
God luck with your study and GBU.
The apostles life was one of the proof - they die because of their faith - they were not just have blind faith - they were life witnesses.
What Jesus teach is why I choose to believe in Him. It help me to be a better person, help me to be positive, help to help others, help me to achieve things in life.
I also do believe in His miracles. We might not be able to descript it with logic, but that is the thing, If His actions all can be rasionalized, then he would be just a man.
If you want to start, read the gospel, about what he teach the paradoxes etc,
Remember mind is very powefull but there is God (higher power) which could help you, Ask then you will get the answer.
Learning about God is not just learning about history and fact, It is about mind and soul as well. One human soul is worth more than tens o thousand animals.
God luck with your study and GBU.
I think Mary was a bit of a Slapper who put it about a bit and got herself lined up with a baby and not wanting to admit this to anybody she denied her affairs and claimed she was a virgin and of course in those days it would have been believable.
How feasible is it that you glance into the sky and spot the north star, say to yourself, we must follow that star, and it will lead you to the stable where Jesus happened to be. Have you tried following a star, find a star directly overhead, I imagine you could walk for many miles in either direction and that star will still be overhead.
I don't wish to be offensive, but I think if people were to look at the bible with their intelligent hat on they would find so many holes in it they could make an informed decision based on their own common sense.
How big big was Noah's boat to get all those animals on without them eating each other, The size of the UK maybe?
Where did he store all that food he needed to feed all those animals?
Where did all the water go after the flood, considering the whole planet was flooded?
Why has Adam and Eve got Belly Buttons?
OK sorry about the last question, but come on!! think about!!
I was brought up with a religious background but started asking question and getting silly answers from so called informed religious people, when I was about 12, My family were and to some extent still are big players in the Salvation Army and my Grandfather Played in the band at the funeral of William Booth ( founder of the Salvation Army)
How feasible is it that you glance into the sky and spot the north star, say to yourself, we must follow that star, and it will lead you to the stable where Jesus happened to be. Have you tried following a star, find a star directly overhead, I imagine you could walk for many miles in either direction and that star will still be overhead.
I don't wish to be offensive, but I think if people were to look at the bible with their intelligent hat on they would find so many holes in it they could make an informed decision based on their own common sense.
How big big was Noah's boat to get all those animals on without them eating each other, The size of the UK maybe?
Where did he store all that food he needed to feed all those animals?
Where did all the water go after the flood, considering the whole planet was flooded?
Why has Adam and Eve got Belly Buttons?
OK sorry about the last question, but come on!! think about!!
I was brought up with a religious background but started asking question and getting silly answers from so called informed religious people, when I was about 12, My family were and to some extent still are big players in the Salvation Army and my Grandfather Played in the band at the funeral of William Booth ( founder of the Salvation Army)
RATTER, it is good that you have taken the time to respond on here. Possibly like me you have a lot of questions, hopefully like me you are looking for answers.
I don't think about the Flood and stuff like that, I prefer to laugh at Eddie Izzard's wonderful sketch about it.
What I did was to examine the evidence for the resurrection and it is very persuasive. I don't worry about Jonah and the whale - I have my own quirky but happy view about it (if anyone is interested). I started off by seeing a new meaning in "My God why have you forsaken me?" as spoken at the crucifixion. It is so many times more important than Adam and Eve's belly buttons.
I'm nowhere near arrived ! Still struggling, but not giving up.
I don't think about the Flood and stuff like that, I prefer to laugh at Eddie Izzard's wonderful sketch about it.
What I did was to examine the evidence for the resurrection and it is very persuasive. I don't worry about Jonah and the whale - I have my own quirky but happy view about it (if anyone is interested). I started off by seeing a new meaning in "My God why have you forsaken me?" as spoken at the crucifixion. It is so many times more important than Adam and Eve's belly buttons.
I'm nowhere near arrived ! Still struggling, but not giving up.
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