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one for you Naomi!........if you wouldn't mind
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Well actually anyone but i have heard Naomi talk about this quite a bit.
am gonna start with please theorise and in your opinion
so that it is known that I just want someones opinion who is more knowledgable than me!
but yeah Naomi could you tell me what you think the life and times of Jesus christ was like? what he did and how he acted and as you have said before he was just maybe a priest, how he somehow became the son of god and then a miracle working reincarnation?
anyone else can answer I just know naomi has mentioned it a few times
am gonna start with please theorise and in your opinion
so that it is known that I just want someones opinion who is more knowledgable than me!
but yeah Naomi could you tell me what you think the life and times of Jesus christ was like? what he did and how he acted and as you have said before he was just maybe a priest, how he somehow became the son of god and then a miracle working reincarnation?
anyone else can answer I just know naomi has mentioned it a few times
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If I might offer a point.
Jesus was not the only miracle worker at the time.
The place was crawling with them.
Look at baptist ministers today healing, speaking in tongues even claiming to raise the dead.
Now imagine a culture with no concept of science, deeply religous/superstitious if you were ill you went to a miracle worker.
Even if Jesus did not perform miracles his disciples would have had to have invented them after his death.
"You follow a holy man - what did he do?"
"He didn't cure the sick? rubbish! Bill the hermit cured a leper last week!"
It was also a deeply masculine society, it's not remarkable that his disciples were men - it would be remarkable and scandelous if they were not.
Also kissing is not necessary sexual in nature , certainly early christians would kiss when they met "the kiss of peace" you can't read sexuality into that
Jesus was not the only miracle worker at the time.
The place was crawling with them.
Look at baptist ministers today healing, speaking in tongues even claiming to raise the dead.
Now imagine a culture with no concept of science, deeply religous/superstitious if you were ill you went to a miracle worker.
Even if Jesus did not perform miracles his disciples would have had to have invented them after his death.
"You follow a holy man - what did he do?"
"He didn't cure the sick? rubbish! Bill the hermit cured a leper last week!"
It was also a deeply masculine society, it's not remarkable that his disciples were men - it would be remarkable and scandelous if they were not.
Also kissing is not necessary sexual in nature , certainly early christians would kiss when they met "the kiss of peace" you can't read sexuality into that
How do we know Paul had a magnificent vision that instantly converted him?
Oh yes, Paul tells us.
X years later the whole organisation has been remoulded in Paul's way, Gentiles are a major part, traditional Jewish thinking on things like Kosher food has been over thrown and the whole thing has a Gentile friendly make-over.
It's not called the Pauline church for nothing!
Oh yes, Paul tells us.
X years later the whole organisation has been remoulded in Paul's way, Gentiles are a major part, traditional Jewish thinking on things like Kosher food has been over thrown and the whole thing has a Gentile friendly make-over.
It's not called the Pauline church for nothing!
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Sherman, Since it�s unlikely that anyone will ever know the truth, I can only give you my opinion. Firstly, he wasn�t a priest in the strict sense of the word. He was a Jewish rabbi, or teacher. I suspect that during the 18 or so years when the gospels tell us nothing about him, he may well have travelled and studied the eastern religions, in particular Buddhism, and I think it possible that the �Wise Men� who supposedly visited at his birth were influential in his education. There is a line of thought that suggests that as a descendant of the House of David through Joseph, he was, in fact, the rightful King of Israel. If he was, then it could explain King Herod�s slaughter of the innocents, and it could also explain the sign the Romans nailed to the cross - King of the Jews. This is possibly why he, like John the Baptist, has been linked to the Zealots, a group of freedom fighters dedicated to liberating the land from Roman occupation, and perhaps to restoring the rightful king to the throne. The fact that he once commanded his disciples to sell their cloaks to buy swords would suggest that he clearly wasn�t the �gentle, meek and mild� person we�re led to believe he was.
As Jake says there were many people around in those times who claimed to be able to heal the sick - and people believed it then, just as some do today. By its very nature, religion relies upon superstition. Contrary to popular opinion, there were women among Jesus� followers, but since the society of the day was male dominated, their role, I believe, has been deliberately understated by the writers of the Gospels.
Continued
As Jake says there were many people around in those times who claimed to be able to heal the sick - and people believed it then, just as some do today. By its very nature, religion relies upon superstition. Contrary to popular opinion, there were women among Jesus� followers, but since the society of the day was male dominated, their role, I believe, has been deliberately understated by the writers of the Gospels.
Continued
Continued
Now to how he became the son of God. All the available evidence would suggest that Jesus didn�t die on the cross. I believe his escape was orchestrated, not by the disciples we normally associate with him, but by his wealthier, more educated, and more socially influential supporters. His disciples believed him dead, but when he appeared before them, superstitious as they were, they believed he had been miraculously resurrected - and he didn�t deny it, although he did give one or two pretty obvious hints when firstly he asked �why seek ye the living among the dead�, and then allowed his disciples to touch his solid flesh. And it�s odd that some of them didn�t recognise him. Could he, as a man obliged to hide from the authorities, have been in disguise? The disciples would no doubt have been overwhelmed in the (flawed) knowledge that Jesus had been resurrected, and as superstitious people, would obviously have considered him to be something very special indeed - perhaps even the son of God. As far as we know, nothing was written at the time to record this momentous event, which in itself is very strange, but rumour would have spread from the disciples among the equally superstitious population, and this is where Paul surfaces.
Continued
Now to how he became the son of God. All the available evidence would suggest that Jesus didn�t die on the cross. I believe his escape was orchestrated, not by the disciples we normally associate with him, but by his wealthier, more educated, and more socially influential supporters. His disciples believed him dead, but when he appeared before them, superstitious as they were, they believed he had been miraculously resurrected - and he didn�t deny it, although he did give one or two pretty obvious hints when firstly he asked �why seek ye the living among the dead�, and then allowed his disciples to touch his solid flesh. And it�s odd that some of them didn�t recognise him. Could he, as a man obliged to hide from the authorities, have been in disguise? The disciples would no doubt have been overwhelmed in the (flawed) knowledge that Jesus had been resurrected, and as superstitious people, would obviously have considered him to be something very special indeed - perhaps even the son of God. As far as we know, nothing was written at the time to record this momentous event, which in itself is very strange, but rumour would have spread from the disciples among the equally superstitious population, and this is where Paul surfaces.
Continued
Continued
Paul never met Jesus, he never heard him speak - he simply hijacked a bit of a legend that had arisen around Jesus and made it all his own, and when the Jews would have none of it, he went to the Gentiles and changed certain Jewish laws to make them more palatable to the new audience. Later, when this new religion was adopted by Constantine, it really took off. Several �committees� were formed to decide upon the doctrine the �Christian� church, followed by Popes through the ages (who incidentally are considered infallible) declaring, for example, that Mary the mother of Jesus, despite having had several children, ascended bodily into heaven, still a virgin. Jesus, along with many other biblical characters, was later adopted as a prophet by Islam, which came into being several hundreds of years after the event.
Some say that Jesus lived out his days in India under the name of Yus Asaph, where he was known as a holy man. His tomb can be seen in Kashmir.
As you�ve probably guessed, I believe there�s a great deal of history contained within the bible - and a great deal of hocus pocus, a lot of it swiped from older legends - so sorting out fact from fiction isn�t easy.
Blimey, looking at these posts, I bet you�re sorry you asked, Sherman!
Paul never met Jesus, he never heard him speak - he simply hijacked a bit of a legend that had arisen around Jesus and made it all his own, and when the Jews would have none of it, he went to the Gentiles and changed certain Jewish laws to make them more palatable to the new audience. Later, when this new religion was adopted by Constantine, it really took off. Several �committees� were formed to decide upon the doctrine the �Christian� church, followed by Popes through the ages (who incidentally are considered infallible) declaring, for example, that Mary the mother of Jesus, despite having had several children, ascended bodily into heaven, still a virgin. Jesus, along with many other biblical characters, was later adopted as a prophet by Islam, which came into being several hundreds of years after the event.
Some say that Jesus lived out his days in India under the name of Yus Asaph, where he was known as a holy man. His tomb can be seen in Kashmir.
As you�ve probably guessed, I believe there�s a great deal of history contained within the bible - and a great deal of hocus pocus, a lot of it swiped from older legends - so sorting out fact from fiction isn�t easy.
Blimey, looking at these posts, I bet you�re sorry you asked, Sherman!
Also Naomi thanks for taking the time to write all that.
its strange as you say your guess is as good as any (unless someone can throw any evidence up?!)
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just think Naomi you could be St Paul!....think about it, all you did is look at what you know of jesus and contstructed a story round him exactly the same as paulo did!
its strange as you say your guess is as good as any (unless someone can throw any evidence up?!)
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just think Naomi you could be St Paul!....think about it, all you did is look at what you know of jesus and contstructed a story round him exactly the same as paulo did!
Jesus the man certainly lived, according to a letter which is in the Manchester Museum, from a father to his son, who was in prison awaiting execution. In the letter the father encourages the son to be as brave facing execution as Jesus was. Also a tomb has been discovered which is inscribed 'James the brother of Jesus'. So there is little doubt that Jesus existed as a man. As for the rest of it, it would be up to each person to decide whether they believe it or not.
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"Jesus the man certainly lived, according to a letter which is in the Manchester Museum, from a father to his son, who was in prison awaiting execution. In the letter the father encourages the son to be as brave facing execution as Jesus was."
Blimey - convincing evidence!
Also a tomb has been discovered which is inscribed 'James the brother of Jesus'.
It's an ossary (a box for bones) and it's widely concluded to be a modern forged inscription on an ancient box. Moreover both Yaakov (Jacob AKA James) and Yeshua (Jesus) were common names in the period, and even if the inscription is genuine, that's hardly conclusive proof that it refers to Jesus rather than someone who shares his name.
So there is little doubt that Jesus existed as a man.
Au contraire.
Blimey - convincing evidence!
Also a tomb has been discovered which is inscribed 'James the brother of Jesus'.
It's an ossary (a box for bones) and it's widely concluded to be a modern forged inscription on an ancient box. Moreover both Yaakov (Jacob AKA James) and Yeshua (Jesus) were common names in the period, and even if the inscription is genuine, that's hardly conclusive proof that it refers to Jesus rather than someone who shares his name.
So there is little doubt that Jesus existed as a man.
Au contraire.
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