Truth

[Quizmonster]

Wouldn't it be a delicious irony if - at the first Prime Minister's Questions session after Parliament's Easter recess - Tony Blair were to lean across the dispatch box and, wagging an admonitory finger at Michael Howard, intone � la Iain Duncan Smith - the words:

"And...nobody...believes...a...word...he...says...any...more"?

I refer, of course, to the latest Tory/Howard Flight fiasco. As Rabbie Burns put it: "Facts are chiels that winna ding." The truth will out.

[Dom Tuk]

seen any Weapons of mass destruction lately quizmonster. On a wider scheme of things the Tory lie (if it is a lie) is on a tectonic scale lower than the WMDs will land on your doorstep in 45 minutes kind of lie. 100000 Iraqis were killed on that basis (usually from 32 000 feet) so lets not have any pious finger wagging from the Labour lowlife on the front benches. And not forgetting the tax increases and the NI contributions i am sure you know the rest.

[Quizmonster]

Have you ever actually bothered to read UN Security Council Resolution 1441, Dom Tuk? It seems not, though it's easily findable using Google. It stated categorically that Iraq was proliferating WMD and the means to deliver them.  It was promulgated months after the 45-minute/Iraqi WMD dossier was...ie the one in which Blair supposedly lied. Not only that, but it was signed-up-to by all 15 member states, including France, Russia, China, Syria etc. So, if Blair lied, then so too did Chirac, Putin and all the rest. 

I've never heard of a tectonic scale myself, but - since you use the term - let me tell you that that the difference between lying and saying something that turns out just to be wrong is equally "on a tectonic scale".

[Dom Tuk]

Seeing that you have read the UN resolutions I take it that you have also probably read the Hutton report and warmly congratulated yourself on what a fine PM Blair has been and will be in the future and how the world is such a safer place!!

[Quizmonster]

For goodness' sake! Why don't you set your mind, Dom Tuk, to the question I asked rather than some totally different one that seems to exist in your head? Tory veracity is the point at issue here. (Incidentally, Hutton and Butler and the senior all-party Commons Intelligence Committee and the senior all-party Commons Foreign Affairs Committee all concluded that Blair was not guilty of deliberately deluding anyone. Did you read any of their findings either?)

Howard Flight was not some gash constituency MP hack; he was Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party. (Mind you, given that Jeffrey Archer was the actual Chairman once, I'm not sure why anything emanating from that office should surprise me!)

The man stood up at a meeting and told his listeners, in effect: "What you're hearing from the party is nakedly political"...the last two were his actual words..."you'll need to wait and see what we really mean to do once we're in power."

He also freely admitted that the James Review of public spending, from which all their promised savings were to come had been (quote) "sieved". A sieve is designed to let only certain elements through whilst keeping others back. In this case, what was acceptable was revealed while what was not was concealed.

So much for: "What we tell you is what we promise to deliver", eh? 

[Dom Tuk]

I am only countering your suggestions that Tony Blair wag his finger at Howard and call him a liar. Yes Mr Flight may have said those words and confided in the truth about the Tory savings plans. But what did Mr. Robin Cook stand up and say about his party leader. Why did Clare Short resign. Why did the largest ever British protest march take place in London. Why did the FCO legal adviser step down. Why is the govt unwilling to publish the legal advice. What is Hans Blix telling us. What were they telling you and your leaders. I could if you like dig out all the quotes and type them out in this reply as you seem to accept quotes as veracity of the argument. But i wont waste my time. I suggest that the gist of what they were telling them is ...'And nobody believes a word he says any more....'

[Quizmonster]

Oh dear, oh dear! I give up...from "yes" to "plans" (less than 2 lines) on my question and from "but" to "more" (10 lines) on yours!

[Oneeyedtic]

The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts blood dyed its every fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

[Quizmonster]

Yet another non-response! The question I posed is asking about the "truth" as recently presented by the Tories, not about workers' anthems.

[Oneeyedtic]

Come, come, QM, you are ranting, not asking a question. Mr. Howard has shown conclusively who is boss. I for one am glad that he has and wish him every success - he has the necessary qualities to be a very effective leader of our country. That does not in anyway detract from your right to believe in Mr Blair - if there are more of you than there is of us he will of course get in again. The counter-balancing points that Dom Tuk has put forward are well made and quite correct, but no useful purpose will be served in attempting a discussion on them with you as I know from previously that you cannot be persuaded to any other view than your own.

[QmunkE]

I find it quite remarkable that the Tory policies are so weak that Michael Howard finds it necessary to crush any dissent in his party by trying to boot them out. Oh, wait, no I don't - I already knew their policies were complete rubbish, and that Howard has about as much chance of becoming PM this election as I do...

Ironic or not, it would make an enjoyable PMQs if Tony Blair behaved as you suggest QM.

[Quizmonster]

So, Vic, are you telling me that you can be persuaded to any other view than your own? Am I unique in my impermeability?

"Wouldn't it be a delicious irony if...." This is ranting? It seems, Vic, that we scarcely even speak the same language! Far from being "quite correct", as you claim, Dom's views have nothing whatever to do with the question I posed.

Have you also truly got nothing to say about Tory veracity? That's the thread's topic, after all.

Thanks, Q. I'll be watching on Wednesday and I hope you are, too. It would be just too delightful...surely someone will have pointed out the opportunity to him.

[jno]

the outcome will simply be that nobody believes anything from any politician of any party. That will be unfortunate, for we do after all need politicians to run the place (most of us not having the time to do it ourselves, though some like Quizmonster may have a bit of time on their hands). Mutual contempt and distrust between rulers and electors hardly seems to me a sane way to run a country.

[Dom Tuk]

I will be watching the next PMQs (if i am at home at 12.00 noon that is) as i do most of the others. I daresay the topic that Howard would like to exploit will be the legal advice that the govt received before the illegal invasion of a country. Mr Bliar will no doubt wag his finger a lot in the vain hope that when 'he simply' says something, it will be believed by the voting public. Or maybe the topic will be 'the date of the next election'. QM see Bremner Bird and Fortune last night. You really must start watching that show. Ah but its on channel 4 and most labour faithful have destroyed that button on their remotes.

[Quizmonster]

Re TV programmes, Dom, Bird and Fortune are brilliant, but Bremner is about as funny as piles.

But there you go again...talking about what the Tories might hope to exploit. You refer also to an 'illegal' war when no such case has ever been put to the test in any international court. You mention 'Bliar' when he must be the only politician in the world to have been cleared of lying by four separate high-level inquiries (as I pointed out earlier)!

Let me ask again...have you any views on my topic that are in even the slightest regard relevant?

[Dom Tuk]

All my views in the post above have a direct relevance to your question regarding Tory policy and future spending projections and the point that they may be lying. So QZ the underlying theme is political lies and how Tony may exploit this and 'wag his finger' at the opposition. I say, and you for some bizarre reason fail to see it, that Tony Bliar (my spelling, but providence has gifted him with that name) is the last person to claim any benefit from Tory lies as his lies have been on a monumental scale. And a man in his power can always find a crony to write a report absolving him of all blame. So step in Lord Hutton -who speaks like a toff but his belfast accent creeps in ever so slightly when he is not playing to the gallery and who thinks rubber bullets fired at teenagers are kosher- will buy the blair fart if it was bottled. But of course none of this is relevant to your question.

[Quizmonster]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! There's truly no more to be said.

[Dom Tuk]

The rest will be said at the ballot box and like true democrats we will accept the result.

[KebabMeister]

For me, no, it wouldn't be 'delicious irony'.  They're both a pair of jumped up imbeciles.  Bliar is only interested in his ego and massaging figures of just about everything (I'm a civil servant so I know how they change the figures!).  The idiotic thing for me is that Labour are STILL comparing stuff to when the Tories were in power.  That's nearly 10 years ago!  Haven't Labour got anything better to do that blame someone else when really they should be getting on with it and trying to make things better!

I haven't a clue who I will vote in the General election; to date I've always voted local Independant because they had local issues at heart.  Now I'm living in Germany for the next 3 years I may even abstain (there aren't any decent parties; they're all a bunch of liars!).  Since living in Germany I can see so many faults of Britain, which is tragic because I love Britain.  I'm sick to death of vandalism, not feeling safe, extortionate pricing, lack of public transport, everyone talking but doing little etc.  It's the complete opposite in Germany, well, in M�nch where I live.  Why should it be different? 

[slimfandango]

Think I can live without the 12.6 percent unemployment though Kebab.

[Oneeyedvic]

QM - please read the above posts again - you have referred to Oneeyedtic as Vic - please do not ocnfuse us.

 

Cheers