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Dubai
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I watched Piers Morgan's programme on Dubai tonight, and couldn't help wondering how the obvious opulence and, what I imagine would be perceived by many Muslims as the decadance of a wealthy western lifestyle, can be reconciled with Islam. Are double standards at play here? Any thoughts?
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I've been to Dubai two or three times and there is a huge amount of hypocracy with the Arabs. Prostitution is evident in the hotels, as is drinking and the locals partipate in both. Not all of course, I have to confess what bothers me most is the lack of rights of women and the exploitation of foreign workers who are treated with contempt (this is watered down from the original thought that they are treated like slaves)
It's hardly a new thing Naomi, if you look at some of the Moor buildings in the Iberian Peninsula, you'll see that Islam has always had a decadence in their building designs.
What is happening in Dubai is just a modern day version of that. Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum is just mixing the west's current financial acumen with oil money.
All religion seems to have a flexibility where money is concerned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_architect ure
What is happening in Dubai is just a modern day version of that. Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum is just mixing the west's current financial acumen with oil money.
All religion seems to have a flexibility where money is concerned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_architect ure
Rosetta, I've been to many Islamic countries, but never got to Dubai, so that's enlightening.
Dabees, yes, that's true, but I'm not talking about architecture. Even though we're told that Islam is unalterable, I think you're absolutely right in saying that all religion appears to have a degree of flexibility where money's concerned, and that's the point I'm making. Islam tells us it rejects western values, indeed it condemns the west for its decadence, and yet in Dubai a western lifestyle is vigorously and actively encouraged, and the religion and the strict rules it applies, appears to have been put on the back boiler somewhat in favour of money.
Dabees, yes, that's true, but I'm not talking about architecture. Even though we're told that Islam is unalterable, I think you're absolutely right in saying that all religion appears to have a degree of flexibility where money's concerned, and that's the point I'm making. Islam tells us it rejects western values, indeed it condemns the west for its decadence, and yet in Dubai a western lifestyle is vigorously and actively encouraged, and the religion and the strict rules it applies, appears to have been put on the back boiler somewhat in favour of money.
The prostitution is definitely an issue they need to tackle, but I suppose that is what becomes of an ideology that belittles the role of women, yet needs to attract and keep young male professionals and businessmen desperate for a bit of female action. I am not condoning it, just think they need to relax the laws on relationships and let more women have the freedom that is their right. There are not enough local women to �go round� and western women are more often required to be married and/or covered head to toe and generally not mix with men who are not married/related to them. So the influx of �women of the night� has become a necessity that other developed/developing places like Singapore has managed to avoid through obvious reasons.
In other respects, I don�t think that we could declare it to be a contradiction � unless you want to be archaic � this is a hard working young generation who are trying to contribute to the global economy and the total vision of the world, these are Muslims with a vision and a mission - they are creating jobs for talented youth and opening up the gateway to the Middle East, that many people in the UK might never have experienced.
The development in the Middle East has sustained many jobs for British professionals that would otherwise have kept them here and adding to the unemployment numbers. This is becoming increasingly apparent in our current climate, where I myself have just posted 9 people off to Dubai & Abu Dhabi so that they can continue working for us. The alternative would have been redundancy, since falling commercial markets and the government pulling funding in capital development of schools and colleges in the UK (oodles of cash to the banks being their current penchant) has meant there are just no jobs to fill in the UK.
In other respects, I don�t think that we could declare it to be a contradiction � unless you want to be archaic � this is a hard working young generation who are trying to contribute to the global economy and the total vision of the world, these are Muslims with a vision and a mission - they are creating jobs for talented youth and opening up the gateway to the Middle East, that many people in the UK might never have experienced.
The development in the Middle East has sustained many jobs for British professionals that would otherwise have kept them here and adding to the unemployment numbers. This is becoming increasingly apparent in our current climate, where I myself have just posted 9 people off to Dubai & Abu Dhabi so that they can continue working for us. The alternative would have been redundancy, since falling commercial markets and the government pulling funding in capital development of schools and colleges in the UK (oodles of cash to the banks being their current penchant) has meant there are just no jobs to fill in the UK.
Octavius, That's the point. Islam is archaic - but not quite so archaic in this case it seems - and good for them.
I think you're confusing Dubai with Saudi Arabia, which is an entirely different ballgame. I saw no evidence in the programme of western women being required to be married and/or covered head to toe and generally not mix with men who are not married/related to them - and none of the women I know who have been there have been subjected to those rules. Apart from that, you say there aren't enough local women to go around, but Islamic women wouldn't have the option of 'going around', and would be restricted to their own culture and to the rules of that culture.
I think you're confusing Dubai with Saudi Arabia, which is an entirely different ballgame. I saw no evidence in the programme of western women being required to be married and/or covered head to toe and generally not mix with men who are not married/related to them - and none of the women I know who have been there have been subjected to those rules. Apart from that, you say there aren't enough local women to go around, but Islamic women wouldn't have the option of 'going around', and would be restricted to their own culture and to the rules of that culture.
Naomi, perhaps things have changed for the better since I was based there last, but I definitely was not confusing it with Saudi. There can be no confusion between the two.
From what I have seen, they do seem to be more relaxed these days with dress code and really they have to be to attract the visitors (tourist & business) and money (tourism & investment) they want and need in order to sustain the vast development. They are showing themselves to be progressive and more tolerant that is surely a good thing. Let us hope that in time such tolerated freedoms extend to their own women.
From what I have seen, they do seem to be more relaxed these days with dress code and really they have to be to attract the visitors (tourist & business) and money (tourism & investment) they want and need in order to sustain the vast development. They are showing themselves to be progressive and more tolerant that is surely a good thing. Let us hope that in time such tolerated freedoms extend to their own women.
Naomi, I left around 14 years ago and moved to Riyadh then Jeddah (ouch!), but you have to remember (Shanghai aside) Dubai is the world�s fastest growing city and no doubt there has been a cultural shift.
When I was there it was still common for a woman showing any amount of flesh to be bibbed and yelled at by a driving Arab, or leered at as though she were a prostitute. I think even today a lot of (female) dress modesty is expected outside of the hotel complexes, although the wearing of the abaya is more often limited to female emerati�s. There is still an expectation on women generally to respect the Islamic culture and all that it implies. Although, like everywhere else, I imagine the men in power are coming to realise the benefits of �allowing� women to wear bikini�s on the beach! :o)
I�ve had a few short trips back and some stop-overs since leaving but none that enabled me the time to notice vast differences. I am trying to convince my wife to go there for a holiday, but she is not keen. I even mentioned living there for a few years, and I still have the bruise from the frying pan. I am debating the merit in travelling out there more often in the future for business development and supporting the guys I have relocated, but we shall see. I�ll probably leave it to my younger colleagues.
When I was there it was still common for a woman showing any amount of flesh to be bibbed and yelled at by a driving Arab, or leered at as though she were a prostitute. I think even today a lot of (female) dress modesty is expected outside of the hotel complexes, although the wearing of the abaya is more often limited to female emerati�s. There is still an expectation on women generally to respect the Islamic culture and all that it implies. Although, like everywhere else, I imagine the men in power are coming to realise the benefits of �allowing� women to wear bikini�s on the beach! :o)
I�ve had a few short trips back and some stop-overs since leaving but none that enabled me the time to notice vast differences. I am trying to convince my wife to go there for a holiday, but she is not keen. I even mentioned living there for a few years, and I still have the bruise from the frying pan. I am debating the merit in travelling out there more often in the future for business development and supporting the guys I have relocated, but we shall see. I�ll probably leave it to my younger colleagues.
Problem is that when these things happen in a country which is known to be Muslim (even by name) then people say after all Islam does allow all these things. However when in other Muslim countries hey do not allow this, and you do not have to go far, just go over the bridge and enter Sharjah, or they make it more strictest by imposing punishment then they are known as extremists.
As far as Dubai is concerned then as I said before Islam is not by name. even in Quran Faith (Iman) and Good deeds (Amil Salih) always come together.
But any way I would not go into this debate, I have been to Dubai few times and going there on this Thursday 5th Feb. But one thing I was pretty much convinced while watching that programme last night, and that was part of a Hadith mentioned 1400 years ago,
It was reported from Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa
sallam) said: "The Hour will not come until the following events have come
to pass: people will compete with one another in constructing high
buildings;
And here is all of it if you are interested to read.
http://islamworld.net/docs/hour/Eleven.txt
As far as Dubai is concerned then as I said before Islam is not by name. even in Quran Faith (Iman) and Good deeds (Amil Salih) always come together.
But any way I would not go into this debate, I have been to Dubai few times and going there on this Thursday 5th Feb. But one thing I was pretty much convinced while watching that programme last night, and that was part of a Hadith mentioned 1400 years ago,
It was reported from Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa
sallam) said: "The Hour will not come until the following events have come
to pass: people will compete with one another in constructing high
buildings;
And here is all of it if you are interested to read.
http://islamworld.net/docs/hour/Eleven.txt
Some people can;t win, if they're devout, they're backward and rigid and if they're progressive then they're not true to their creed.
Our society evolved through a variety of different strictures, Dubai was a British protectorate until about 1948 (I think) we should applaud it's progress and leave them alone to govern their country in the way they see fit.
If you don't like it don't go there, we've had puritans etc over here, these countries are experiencing the growing pains we've had just in a far shorter time period.
Our society evolved through a variety of different strictures, Dubai was a British protectorate until about 1948 (I think) we should applaud it's progress and leave them alone to govern their country in the way they see fit.
If you don't like it don't go there, we've had puritans etc over here, these countries are experiencing the growing pains we've had just in a far shorter time period.
Erm yourself.
Double standards etc, is being rich incompatible with being a Muslim?
I'm not a theologian (by any measure) but if I memory serves they should offer 10% of their annual wealth to charity, I imagine that's how they do it..
Well some of em.
The same could said of socialism, I own a house so how can I be a socialist?
You speak of Muslims as a homogenous group when they're as diverse as anyother people.
In what way would you like to see Islam expressed to your satisfaction?
There are many practices within Islamic countries I dislike, but it's their land to rule, even so when you look at the place like Iran women are not entirely without power.
They're not viewed as equal (it's true) but then nor were you 100 years ago, and we've been free from foreign rule (arguably) for nearly 1000 years.
Double standards etc, is being rich incompatible with being a Muslim?
I'm not a theologian (by any measure) but if I memory serves they should offer 10% of their annual wealth to charity, I imagine that's how they do it..
Well some of em.
The same could said of socialism, I own a house so how can I be a socialist?
You speak of Muslims as a homogenous group when they're as diverse as anyother people.
In what way would you like to see Islam expressed to your satisfaction?
There are many practices within Islamic countries I dislike, but it's their land to rule, even so when you look at the place like Iran women are not entirely without power.
They're not viewed as equal (it's true) but then nor were you 100 years ago, and we've been free from foreign rule (arguably) for nearly 1000 years.
Oh dear, Everton. Foot in mouth again. You have a very bad habit of failing to read what others say before you put in your two-pennyworth. No one here has suggested that wealth is incompatible with Islam - it never has been - and there's no reason it should be. The question concerned the obviously decandant western lifestyle produced and encouraged by the wealth of Dubai, and the acceptibility of that lifestyle within Islam.
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