What if----Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan etc

[Lonnie]

There are always What if scenarios, so, if the west had never responded to 911 in the way they did, ie, Military action, how do you think events might have unfolded?.

[stokeace]

there would have been more atrocities maybe on a grander scale ie nuclear or biological weapons being unleashed but you can never explain this to the do gooders of this world if it wasnt for the bravery of our troops fighting al queada and the taliban in afghanistan there would undoubtably be more terrorist acts committed on the uk and the united states.the security forces and intelligence services can only do so much to protect us and we owe them a debt of gratitude so that we can try to live as normal a life as possible.

[fairkatrina]

No offence, stokeace, but Balls! If terrorists really did have nuclear or biological weapons then us invading their homelands would only make them more inclined to use them and we would have seen some such attack by now. We have still to find a single WMD in Afghanistan or Iraq (apart from the ones we dropped there). I am not saying that Al Queada didn't need bringing down, but there were better ways of doing it (although then we wouldn't have all that lovely oil that we happened on while we were over there). Just look at Iraq now; the people were better off under Saddam Hussein (sadly enough), civil war has broken out (and anyone who tells you any different is lying) and more of our soldiers are being killed and wounded every day, fighting a war that they cannot win. No ideological battle was ever won by force - something that the Americans should have learnt in Vietnam.

[stokeace]

fairkatrina ive never read such a load of b***ocks in my life [no offence] how the hell can you say the iraqis were better off under saddam hussein?he killed thousands of his own countrymen that is why he was hanged a couple of weeks ago do you remember that?if we dont win this war on terror we will be living in fear of further atrocities i bet you were 1 of the thousands of war protesters waving their placards in london a typical do gooder who doesnt have a clue what they are on about do you want another 9/11 or 7/7 on our hands?and when it does happen i bet you are 1 of those that place flowers at the scene of the terrorist act get your head out of the sand and look at the world in which we now live sadly a world of terrorism not helped by the thoughts of lilly livered do gooders.

[Lonnie]

Don't forget chaps, this is a 'What if' scenario, and 911 has happened, with no military force as retaliation, therefore, there's been no invasion of iraq and Afghanistan.

I think your right stokeace, doubt the Nuclear option, but possible, Biological, almost a certainty, with more atrocities in America, and accross Europe.

[fairkatrina]

Yes Saddam did terrible things, and he did massacre many of his citizens, but now ordinary Iraquis are killing each other by the thousands every single week. When a child is caught in the crossfire they can only go to religion-appropriate hospitals, the divide has become so great, and our gallant troops are preventing medical supplies reaching some of these hospitals because we are afraid of the religious ideologies that they stand for. I am sure terrorist atrocities would be committed whether we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan (and Iran) or not, but by going in mob-handed and creating a war with an entire nation when it is only one faction of that nation's people that are the real enemy we have mobilised the entire middle east against us. And just to clarify, I have never visited the site of a terrorist bombing intentionally to lay flowers and keen over people that I knew nothing about, rather I am concerned with the best way of making sure that it doesn't happen again. We will never be able to control the actions of a fundamentalist and fanatical minority, but the challenge is to keep them a minority, as only that way will we be able to console ourselves that when they do strike against us (as they always will) they will lack the numbers, the funding and the sources to pull off a huge-scale assault. I am also concerned about our troops, who are being led like lambs to the slaughter into an unjust war, waged against the wrong enemy.

[Gromit]

What if...

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were planned long before 911?

[Llamatron]

I read recently that four times as many Iraqis have died during this invasion than did throughout the whole of Saddams 25 year reign.

[stokeace]

interesting observations indeed about my comments.its just that i agree with the troops being deployed in iraq and afghanistan its factions still loyal to saddam hussein that are causing the civil war in the country the british and u.s forces presence there will not stop insurgents [mainly funded by iran] from bombing and killing iraqi people.lonnie i agree with you but al queada almost got their hands on plutonium a couple of years ago and they had the capability to make a nuclear dirty bomb.it doesnt have to be a massive explosion to cause mass panic.just the word nuclear bomb explosion would cause widespread panic on a scale you could not imagine.i fear its a case of when and not if before there is another atrocity unleashed on the west and then all the people against this war will realise that maybe blair and bush are actually right.

[maxximus]

i vote fairkatrina should get stokeace's stars and gromit should get six!

[Lonnie]

maxximus, if I could do that, I would, however, for suggesting it, have three for yourself.

[Beria]

I think with the amount of sympathy and goodwill towards US in the aftermath of 9/11 they really missed a chance to do the right thing.
Which would have been to question why someone would do this to them. And to foster better relations with muslim countries, and to become more tolerant of other countries and religions.

[stokeace]

mmm lonnie you are a bit of a turncoat arent you?gromit the 'invasion' wasnt planned before 9/11 was it now?you people wont rest until there is another terrorist attack will you?as an ex member of the forces who has served in iraq with the staffordshire regiment i can assure you the lads on the ground in basra and afghanistan dont want to hear you lot bleating about how they shaould be brought home and how the war on terror is wrong they are there to do a job and need the british public behind them.you lot are giving more publicity to the terrorists and how wrong our presence is in iraq get behind the armed forces and stop supporting terrorist activities.

[maxximus]

well actually stokeace, it was. the invasion took place oct.7 2001. a little better than three weeks after the fact. even you would have to admit, logisticaly impossible in so short a time. ahmed shah massoud ( the lion of panjshir ) was also assassinated sep.9 2001, coincidence, maybe or maybe not. you do know who he is, right?

[Lonnie]

We seem to have diversified from the original Hypothetical question, shame, but there you are.

stokeace, how do you make me out to be a turncoat?, i've given stars to the answers I've liked, however, I agreed, and still do with the original invasion, but not in any way with the way the aftermath has been handled.

I've always supported our troops, I served ten years, and you don't do that without learning just a little about how it works, I'm too old to seve now, but I did serve in Aden, know anything about the 'Crater District'?, and various other active arena's around the world, including three tours of NI.

[stokeace]

well maxximus actually i do know who ahmed shah massoud he was military leader for the islamic front for the salvation of afghanistan who was ordered to be killed by hamhed karza although i dont want to go into the history of all that.sorry for calling you a turncoat lonnie but it seems a lot of people have forgotten about the horrors of 9/11 and 7/7.

[Lonnie]

No problem stokeace, thing is, people don't look ar learn from history, and more importantly, very recent history, your absolutely correct.

[jake-the-peg]

Hypothetically lets assume that Bush had not been in power when 9/11happened.

It's not that unlikely - remeber the Florida elections, cout cases about chads (voting slips not fully punched etc?)

Well Al Gore would have been president if that cour case had gone the other way. Unlike Bush Gore saw active service in Vietnam which he saw a s a dreadfull mistake.

However I think pretty much any US president would have taken the same acton over Afghanistan but I don't think Gore would have gone into Iraq - I'm still convinced that was a personal Bush family thing.

Consequently I our forces would be split between 2 theatres and it would be a lot harder for people to portray things as a West vs Arab world war. Of course Saddam Hussein would still be murdering his own people but then and again so is Mugabe and loads of others!

There can hardly be any other law case that had such a massive effect on the turn of history

[maxximus]

hamed karzai? not sure what he had to do with it.

[stokeace]

let me enlighten you maxximus hamid karsai was the afghanistan president who ordered amhed shah massoud to be killed.maybe you are not educated as you thought you are.you do know who he is right?oh well you do now dont you?