Cluster Bombs

[retrocop]

What are your views on the deployment of this ordnance in Ukraine?
As much as I hope Ukraine can reclaim all its territory and kick the Russians back to the Urals I am dubious about this use of munitions whereby 120 countries have banned this use. I am sure there will be no peaceful resolution to this illegal invasion or a capitulation and it will be a war to the finish.
Do you think the Ukrainians may be shooting themselves in the foot ?. The Ukraine territory is already littered with Russian minefields and indiscriminate booby traps to kill and maim civilians. This will keep the de-mining and bomb disposal units busy for years to come and long after hostilities cease.
Bearing in mind that Cambodian Farmers and children today are still being killed and maimed long after the Vietnam war finished despite the best efforts of mine clearing charities.
Do any ABers think the Ukraine is wise to deploy these munitions on their own land?.

[Zacs-Master]

Indeed. General Lord Dannatt is on Twitter saying very similar things.

[Old_Geezer]

Ukraine & Russia were already using them. The issue is about the US opting to replenish Ukrainian stocks. I am very uneasy about it, removes much of the moral high ground. I would rather the US found the missles needed instead. But I understand why, as they aren't using them, the nations at war are; and the Ukrainians need to oust their enamy from dug in locations. Not an easy decision to make whatever was chosen. But overall I disapprove. We didn't sign up not to use them for no reason.

[Ellipsis]

I see it similar to nuclear weapons ... only use them if the other side does, and even then only consider it carefully.

[ichkeria]

General Dannatt, frankly, is an idiot.
It’s not that long ago he was claiming Wagner forces might launch an assault on Kyiv from Belarus.
Whole lot of nonsense being talked about these weapons. No one wants to see them used in civilian areas but that applies to all weapons.
The theoretic objection is that large numbers of them lie around unexploded. In a risk fact these shells detonate in 98% of cases. And Ukraine won’t be using them in civilian areas.
War is nasty; all weapons can cause horrible deaths. Fancy burning to death in a tank?
Hopefully this will speed up Ukraine’s clearing out enemy trenches.
As for the clean up job, I think that won’t be an issue as it’s their own territory and it’s a side issue compared to the mass demining of far greater numbers of land mines.
The DPICMs as I mentioned elsewhere also detonate mines.
So bring it on I say: the only shame is it’s taken a year from when they were first asked for.

[Bobbisox1]

Through the idiocy that is Joe Biden, the other idiot Mad Vlad might just put his finger on the button

[Zacs-Master]

Idiots are sometimes right, Ich.

[ichkeria]

Not getting you bobbi: Putin has already used far more unreliable cluster munitions to target civilians: shells which only detonate in just over half of cases.
Biden is only an idiot in saying that that this is to replace conventional shells.
It isn’t

[ichkeria]

I haven’t seen Dannatt’s posts but I am afraid that there is indeed a lot of nonsense talked about this.
All the objections are easily refuted but it won’t stop people stubbornly protesting

[Peter Pedant]

how many wars has the Lord Dannatt won?

From the Ukrainian point of view it is very simple - will they ( the bombs) kill Russians?

wars always go like this - 1939 any sniper with a sniperscope was shot on sight: I am certain they didnt do that in 1945

[ichkeria]

It boils down to this: the objections to cluster munitions don’t apply in this situation. It’s perfectly reasonable to want to not use them in hypothetical situations - I’d put my name to such objections. But the remaining stocks of them can do a job in this particular situation.

[retrocop]

Once the Russians go who is to say an area in Ukraine will be denied access to children or farmers. These munitions are not laser guided, indiscriminate and not all explode. As I wrote earlier the cluster bombs made and used in the Vietnam war are still popping today and still killing people. I don't care for the Russians but I fear for a very traumatised and shell shocked civilian populace if this ordnance comes back to haunt them in years to come. It appears the US are not too fussy, in any case, about indiscriminate use. Agent Orange comes to mind.

[ichkeria]

It will take a generation to clear the mines as it is: therefore worrying about a few extra unexploded munitions in the same areas is senseless.

[retrocop]

Hope you are right.

[ichkeria]

Also, they will not be used indiscriminately as the Russians have used them

[ichkeria]

In fact, just to repeat again: because these munitions detonate existing mines there may actually be a net reduction in unexploded bombs

[ynnafymmi]

Only one person is responsible for the deployment of these weapons-Putin.He thought that his Putin war(just like his hero-Hitler,when Hitler invaded Russia in 1941)would be over and done within six weeks.

[anneasquith]

I’m not knowledgeable enough to give an opinion, but I trust Ich opinion in this matter .
Too many innocent people are bing murdered .

[ynnafymmi]

Only one person(or eejit,heidbanger)to blame,anne,Putin.The sooner this fascist is swinging from a rope the better.

[ichkeria]

“Joe Biden has taken a difficult but brave decision to supply cluster munitions to Ukraine. He is right. These are terrible weapons. But they have been used by Putin for over a year in his programme of indiscriminate slaughter of an entirely innocent people. The faster we help the Ukrainians to win, the more lives we will save all round. And never forget - it is the Ukrainians who will use these weapons on their own soil, and to protect themselves.”

So says Boris Johnson and he’s dead right

[nicebloke1]

I have no objection to Ukraine using such bombs.You wont win any war with your hands tied behind your back. Lets not forget the crap Putin has put you Ukraine through. Putin is nothing more than a murderer. Give them hell Ukraine because thats all Putin understands.