Same old mistake.

[Sqad]

http://www.dailymail....cratic-directive.html

This has nothing to do with cost cutting and everything to do with ethos.
We have one of the worst cancer survival rates in Europe simply because the hospitals do not have the facilities in either doctors or diagnostic resources to meet the referrals of the GP's.

So how is the Government going to redress this,?........by diverting more money to the GP's so that they can send more patients to a service that cannot cope.........utter madness.

GP's and PCT should be slimmed down to the minimum, attached to hospitals as a huge polyclinic and the money diverted to the hospitals for more radiological equipment and medical resources.

This will NEVER happen for Political reasons....the electorate will call it more cost cutting and will bleat ....inconvenience, and so our cancer survival rates will remain poor compared to other countries.

[Sqad]

modeller...your points to Gromit are well founded and pertinent, but what is the point in hospital referral by ANY method, if the hospital has not the resources to handle the situation, which is often the case.

A sweeping statement I admit, but if i was a medical emergency, i would rather be in the US or France or Germany, but if i needed long term care i would rather be in the UK.

[modeller]

sqad //Sorry I cannot be more specific, but we are dealing with improved health care as well as making the financial aspect of the NHS more efficient.//

But you are being specific // attached to hospitals as a huge polyclinic //.

And when challenged you can't/wont answer . When Lofty said your proposals were unworkable you said //Fine.// That's a cop out.

Dodging the answer by saying //I am a clinician, not an economist// is another cop out it just shows how your original post was ill thought out.

[Sqad]

modeller.......fine (another cop out)

Don't get "hot under the collar" as nothing will change.

my "ill thought out comments" have been harvested from the experience of working in Europe, the USA and a middle Eastern country and were meant to be another side to health care........clearly falling on stony ground.

[albaqwerty]

I don't think giving the GP's more money is sensible.

Give the money to the hospitals to enable them to treat more patients.

My unlce was diagnosed with prostate cancer and went private. (Poor use of English, excuse me)

I was diagnosed with pre-cancerous cells and was treated within a month.

[modeller]

sqad //if the hospital has not the resources to handle the situation, which is often the case. //
Now that makes sense , there isn't any point in referring someone to a hospital, if you know there is no treatment for them . If that is the case then it is the hospital concerned that should be helped not building a distant polyclinic and denuding GP clinics who are currently doing a very good job.

[Sqad]

modeller....you are at last getting my point........BUT all the money i going to the GP's and NOT the hospitals.....so how will this help the waiting times?

You have latched onto my idea of Polyclinics which i think is a good idea, but only a part of my suggested reforms.

Modeller...this is the 21st century, we spend £2billion a year on the NHS, waiting times are as I have mentioned unreasonably long, cancer survival rates well down the league of developed countries.......can you not see that all is not well?

OK...rubbish my idea........but what would you suggest should be done?

[Gromit]

Modeller

I don't think I have a political bias on this. I was giving anedotal evidence that for some reason some GPs are reluctant sometimes to refer patients.

I wish my friend had got a second opinion, but people tend to believe their doctors and do not like to make a fuss. My friend said to us six months before he was belatedly diagnose, that "I've probably got cancer", but we thought he was being dramatic. His doctor reassured him it was nothing serious.

[modeller]

Sqad //OK...rubbish my idea........but what would you suggest should be done?//
Good try sqad . Pass the buck . Of course I don't have the answer to the ills of the NHS. but I can comment on ideas which I don't think are workable.

I do believe the NHS is , in common with all state run and some private organisations inefficient . That's why I believe the workforce should be asked how their departments could be improved. Where tried it has been found to achieve remarkable results. When I say the workforce I mean those actually doing the the job, not management and definately not the unions. I well remember a factory on the verge of closing down which could have been saved by the workers, as well as almost doubling their pay packets but the union refused to sanction it and the factory closed.

[modeller]

gromit Your example may have been anecdotal but your conclusion was not //The conclusion is he either had a very bad doctor, or the doctor was more concerned with saving money. //
That left little doubt in your mind where the fault lay.
May I assume you advised him to seek futher advice. I have a friend who is frightened to stand up for himself so I can understand how some people, like your friend , might die as a result . Which brings us back to your conclusion which precluded other possible reasons.

[Teddy_boy]

I thought we had worst rates becaus eof excessive smoking and alcohol abuse which is causing alarming rates of cancer in women. Self inflicted it seems.

[boxtops]

Under the new reforms, the money is going to the GPs in order that they shall commission the hospitals (and any willing provider services) to deliver the services specifically required by local communities. The GPs aren't expected to deliver it all themselves, that wouldn't work - the hospitals are going to have to prove that they can deliver, or they won't get the contracts - this is why there is the fear of privatisation of parts of the NHS.

If the Daily Mail article is right then it is scary, but locally here, people are seen within a two week referral period - but different parts of the country vary. PCTs are currently under such pressure to reduce outlay that they may well be giving out advice to GPs to avoid over-referring - hospitals have to accept and treat anyone referred to them by a GP, hence they overspend and they just can't do it any more. I'm not defending the current situation, only describing it as it's been described to us within the NHS.
One last thing - as I understand it, commissioning for cancer care and certain other national priorities will not be devolved to GP consortia level - the plan says that this will continue to be commissioned centrally through the National Commissioning Board.

[Sqad]

boxy....exactly... succinctly put in my opinion.

More money to GP's for better and faster commissioning to hospitals of which the majority cannot cope at this very moment.

Sounds a good plan.

[Sir Alec]

I know it's awful, but if people turn up on our doorstep heavily pregnant, they should have their baby in their native country. Not have it in England because it is economically convenient and therefore a future aim to bringing their family over here. We are paying out far too much child benefit.