Tories at war over Europe

[Gromit]

Division within the Conserative Party over Europe were the downfall of both Margaret Thatcher and John Major. We are set for a mini rebellion over the referendum vote with many Conservatives voting against Cameron.

Is this the start of the end for Cameron?

http://www.guardian.c...urope-tory-pm-cameron

[notasyoungasiwas]

"Is this the start of the end for Cameron?" Hope so .....

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

This is what you said on an earlier post that I set on this subject.

/// Labour and the Lib Dems will vote against it as will most Tories. A few Conservatives will rebel and I suspect many will not turn up to vote. A referendum on EU membership will not take place.///

Now you are saying 'Many' Conservatives will rebel.

As I said then "will this be Cameron's Waterloo"?

If it does cause the downfall of Cameron who would you wish takes his place, any of these?

/// The influential chairman of the Commons culture committee, John Whittingdale, former leadership contender David Davis, the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee, Graham Brady, and former Cabinet minister John Redwood.///

I would go for David Davis myself.

But not all is 'Hunky-dory' in the Labour Party it would seem.

/// Graham Stringer accused leader Ed Miliband of making a 'mistake' by subjecting the party to a three-line whip on Monday's vote.///

/// The former Labour whip said he will defy the order for MPs to oppose the proposals, arguing it was time people were 'given a choice'.///

'here here' I say to that.

[ichkeria]

There's a good article by Matthew Parris on this subject in the Saturday Times (from the perspective of a pro-Europe Tory)

[modeller]

Why is Labour betraying its supporters ? Working class people are the most affected by uncontrolled EU immigration so why is Labour not supporting a referendum ? Both Ed and Dave are making the excuse that this is not the time to have one because of the economy. I bet if we were in the middle of a boom they would say the same. It will never be the right time !

Gromit //Is this the start of the end for Cameron? // Yes/No !
Yes in the sense he has totally failed to honour his election pledges but neither has Ed or most of the MPs. No because there is no one in either party who would do any better.

shortstraw // Farage has been surprisingly quiet throughout this...//
I don't think there is much for him to say apart from " I told you so ! "

[rov1100]

It shows the pure hyprocacy of our leaders. On the one hand saying these Arab countries must have democracy and on the other hand refusing the British people a say in their future.

[jake-the-peg]

Yes Modeller why do the Tories not want a in/out vote?
why does the Labour not want a in/out vote?
Why do the Lib Dems not want an in out vote?

We all know this - it's because there would be a vote for out

The question is why do they not want us out?

Because they know it would be disasterous for the country.

They don't want a referendum for the same reason Scools don't want to give theit 14 year old boys a vote on whether or not they should be allowed to let fireworks off in the classrooms!

[New Judge]

Hardly a fair analogy, jake. Almost as bad as some I come up with from time to time!

The electorate of the UK are not fourteen year old children. They know what effect the EU is having on the country and on them as individuals. Our current relationship with the EU has not happened by accident. It has been contrived by successive governments (of all parties). But most importantly it has happened by stealth – each measure, by itself not a big deal, but taken end to end our relationship with the Europe now is profoundly different to that which existed in 1975.

For the purposes of this debate there is no need to discuss the relative merits of being in or out of the EU. The issue is that there are large numbers of people in this country who are currently unhappy about that relationship. For various reasons many politicians of all persuasions want the status quo to remain and I am not at all convinced that it is simply because they believe membership is in Britain’s best interests - but again that is not for argument here. Politicians are not in office to give the electorate what they think is good for them. They are there to reflect and enact their wishes.

All of the main parties (the only ones likely to form a government) have the same policy on Europe. There is no realistic choice for the electorate to make between them to have the current situation changed. But the large numbers who want to see change (not necessarily a majority) on this profound issue are entitled to have their views canvassed and not brushed aside as if they were fourteen year olds wanting more sweets.

This problem will not go away, but there is a simple way to address it: hold a referendum. The politicians can use the campaign to persuade the electorate that it is in the UK’s best interests to remain as we are. Opponents can try to persuade them otherwise. The majority will prevail and politicians will have a mandate to do what the electorate wants. Neither side “wins”. The winners would be the electorate.

[anotheoldgit]

When the voting on this has taken place, then it should be for the MPs to inform their constituents on which way they voted.

That way we could either agree or disagree with their vote, and then at the next general, either vote them in or out, depending on whether or not you agreed with them.

[Gromit]

AOG

It doesn't really matter which way your MP votes if the party is pro EU, which the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems are. The Conservatives campaigned at the last General Election on a pro Europe stance. It would be wrong for them to get elected by saying they will do one thing and then do the complete opposite.

[New Judge]

Why should the European issue receive such special treatment? The UK is littered with examples of governments promising one thing in opposition then doing precisely the opposite when in power.