So has Dictator Dave really won?

[youngmafbog]

Dave has now shown his true colours and indeed now seems to be proved as an opportunistic liar and virtually a dictator.

Europe is not a single party issue nut denying the public a vote when you nkow that the majority are not happy with the situation is. Dave now shows he is unwilling to listen to the public, just like Blair and Brown before him and worse he is prepared to bully MPs that would like to represent their voters. And Milliband for allhis shouting is not much better.

Will this break the Tories? I for one have ersigned my membership of the Tory party and will no longer vote for them after 30 odd years of support. Will others do the same?

[boxtops]

Hardly a dictator, youngmaf. We'd know if we lived under a dictatorship.

[Davethedog]

Cameron is doing what he thinks is best for the country. I have said this many times the economic implications for this country in leaving the EU are far, far worse than remaining. Jobs and business rely on the EU if we leave those firms would have no where to sell their goods.

Its portrayed by the media that if we leave we will save billions and not be dictated to, if only it were that simple.

I never thought I would attempt to defend a tory PM from a tory?

[rojash]

The problem is that if he did "listen to the public", those member of the public that he would be listening to are the idiots who think that the EU has some connection with the European Court of Human Rights, or that the there is a rule from the EU requiring square bananas and other such ridiculous cr@p but out by the likes of the DM.

If you think democracy is best serve by a referendum of the hoi polloi, consider this: Imagine that (for whatever reason) it was possible to have only one newspaper, and the public had to vote for which one. Do you imagine we'd get the best newspaper available? Nope, we'd all have to read the Sun, or nothing.

[bazwillrun]

@rojash
Absolute garbage, not forgetting arrogant and condescending

[Davethedog]

Couldn't agree with rojash more, the EU and its impact cannot be summed up in a two or even four page newspaper article, but who will read the papers that show exactly what the EU is about, nearly no one.

Its the same with political parties, each publish a manifesto that anyone can read, however the public take their opinions from, biased, media articles, many of whom have their own reasons to manipulate the outcome.

For instance the present financial situation, many people blame Brown directly for it, when it palpably was the economic institutes gambles that caused it, Brown should, maybe, of handled it better (much better) but the media said it was his fault so thats that.

[youngmafbog]

So what you are saying is the public dont agree with your sentiments so they should not have a say?

Dictatorship is when you do what you think is best against the wishes of the majority. This is what he has done. I am sure Gaddafi thought he was doing the best for his country and the same for Hitler and the rest of them. Being a dictator does mean that you murder people.

[jake-the-peg]

Yes he has won

He got the most votes

He has the support from all the major party leaders on this issue.

I keep asking Euro-skeptics why they think all the major party leaders want us to remain in Europe - what it is they think they have to gain

I never get any answers

[emmie]

rojash, the electorate are the hoi polloi, what a ridiculous thing to say. It's the electorate that put him into power, and it will be the electorate that throws him out when the time comes.
No Cameron is not a dictator, he is a serving PM, and one who has not got the support of many of his party.

[Old_Geezer]

Even were I to be charitable and assume Dave erred because he thought he was doing the right thing the fact still remains that in a claimed democracy he is not only avoided giving the public a chance to state their opinion, despite the situation being brought into being due to a massive petition from his government's web-site he even bullied his party to reject it using this undefendable "three line whip". That is not his function, it is the sort of thing one expects from a dictator, and it has brought the UK system even further into disrepute. Who can persuade folk to vote in elections when it is clear their voice, their opinion, is of no concern ?

The inadequacies of the system has been laid bare once again. And excuses about there being more important thing one should not get distracted form simply doesn't wash. If he is incapable of dealing with more than one issue at a time then he and his government should resign as a matter of honour. Not that I can think of anyone worth replacing them with.

[Old_Geezer]

Why they think all the major party leaders want us to remain in Europe

Perhaps they don't have the balls to make real change for our benefit but find it easier to go along signing whatever is put in front of them ?

[Gromit]

The e-petition was signed by just 100,000 of the 44million eligible to vote. Hardly an overwhelming endorsement by any stretch of the imagination.

Cameron was elected on a pro European policy, and he got the most votes. That is not dictatorship that is democracy.

The Tory party imploding over Europe is just history repeating.

The rebels should go and join UKiP, but they know the British public would never vote for them in significant numbers. So they are stuck by their own greed, in the wrong party.

[Old_Geezer]

100,00 on a petition is an amazing endorsement. What percentage would you find reasonable to seek out a petition on a website ? Most may have an opinion but won't get around to expressing it in any significant way. 100,000 is as much as can reasonably be expected, probably more.

As for what the Tories were elected on, no voter can pick and chose individual issues, but has to select a complete manifesto, which may not even be adhered to. As the Tories are seen as probably the most Euro sceptic of the main parties, i.e. those few likely to gain power, I don't believe claiming they were elected on a pro Euro ticket is very convincing.

[BenDToy]

jake-the-peg. If you don't know what the main party leaders have to gain then you have obviously given this about as much thought as any other of your opinions. The benefits of us remaining in the EU are enormous - for them.
The personal rewards are, ego and power (ie grandstanding on a bigger stage), and primarily financial. Perhaps you could google Neil Kinnock, Peter Mandelson, Baroness Ashton et al to see the facts on that. And all this without the inconvenience of having to get yourself re-elected. The only qualification is that you have to be a politician in a member state.
Or maybe you think that politicians put the interests of the country before their own financial or egotistical ones. As can be confirmed by the expenses scandal, the clinging on to power at all costs, the lying and cheating, warmongering, burying bad news on 9/11, need I go on.

[jake-the-peg]

No that theory doesn't hold water

I think we all know that a referendum would take us out of Europe.

So why would an opposition leader not grab the policy to ensure his victory.

You don't get to grandstand on the world stage in opposition!


Rather than tell me I don't know what I'm talking about you could perhaps think about the hesitatingly small possibility that you might be mistaken yourself

[Old_Geezer]

According to the newspaper I read over the weekend, their poll showed a referendum would not take us out of Europe, but simply renegotiate the terms of our continued membership. Difficult to believe the public would want to still have their laws dictated to by the whole of Europe, and gradually slip back to where we already are, but it seems as if they might. Maybe one good reason to delay the referendum after all.

[jake-the-peg]

Since when are British laws dictated by the whole of Europe?

This is such utter nonsense - we are part of Europe - a big part

To hear this go on you'd think that the EU was entirely run by the French and Germans without a single British voice!


It's like people in Hampshire saying why should we be dictated to by the London Government

You elected them

[BenDToy]

Of course I admit that I may be mistaken. That is always a possibility - well a bit more than a possibility really. ;-) But I did give you an answer which is what you said you never get! And Neil Kinnock did very well out of the EU gravy train without ever having been in government.

[bazwillrun]

"And Neil Kinnock did very well out of the EU gravy train without ever having been in government"

and so did other members of his family

noses and troughs spring to mind

[jake-the-peg]

You did that's true - not a brilliant answer and yes some people have done well

Nigel Farage boasted that he took over a Million pounds worth of expenses out of being an MEP!

I think though you should seriously consider the possibility that they genuinely consider our continued membership to be in the country's best interests.

This isn't often aired but there is an overwhelming reason.

this country depends hugely on foreign investment - I myself work for a large US multinational.

I can tell you they dont break down their sales by Country - they think Asia, US, Europe.

they have no interest in being in the UK

They want to be in Europe - and the UK is a good option in that.

If we we're not in Europe we would lose a vast amount if internal investment in this country - it would be devestating financially for this country.

That argument doesn't play well in papers but it's the main reason that David Cameron, John Major and even Maggie Thatcher wanted to keep us in the EU

[jake-the-peg]

Here you go

http://www.ukti.gov.u...home/item/172480.html

The UK is the top destination in Europe for inward investment and 3rd in the world.

We are very very dependant on foreign capital and our position as being a member of the EU is a key part of that