Patrick Moore: "The only food Kraut is a dead Kraut

[sp1814]

Is there a time limit for hatred?

Let's bring race into it (hoorah, I hear you cry)...if a black chap from the Deep South who'd witnessed lynchings in the 40s and 50s had said, "The only good white man is a dead white man", would that be more or less shocking than what Mr Moore had said?

Indeed - should we be shocked at all?

http://www.dailymail....b-killed-fianc-e.html

[emmie]

it's a bit old, but relates to what i said.

[Zeuhl]

em

from your link

Prime Minister Tony Blair has said he feels "deep sorrow" for Britain's role in the slave trade.[i

fair enough - if that's how he feels

[i]But Mr Blair stopped short of issuing a full apology]

Quite right, only the person responsible can make a meaningful apology. By anyone else it's just crass.

But we should all be comfortable in acknowledging what happened in the past - it's part of who and what we are as a nation - we should learn and grow from that acknowledgement.

the alternative to acknowledgement is to suppress or distort the remembrance of those things and that is unhealthy, dishonest and cowardly

[Zeuhl]

if my one and only love was murdered by the nazis, i may feel the same ...

Indeed you might cath but Patrick Moore wasn't talking about murdering nazis, he wasn't even talking about the German flyers who dropped the bomb that killed his fiancee

he was (apparently) talking about all Germans - even those born long after the war ended

That is what made his comment stupid and inappropriate.

[jake-the-peg]

A Tory voter for many years, he now remains a supporter and patron of the eurosceptic UK Independence Party.

There's a surprise - do you suppose Nigel Farage will be appearing with him soon?

A typical UKIP bloke I'd say!

[emmie]

further on in that article, 2007, so an apology would not be enough, but monetary compensation?

Esther Stanford, of the Pan African Reparation Coalition, said all countries that had ever been involved in slavery should give a full apology.
"An apology is just the start - words mean nothing," she told BBC News.
"We're talking about an apology of substance which would then be followed by various reparative measures including financial compensation."

She said: "If we do not deal with this now it is tantamount to saying that you can commit crimes against humanity, against African people and get away with it."

[chaptazbru]

shaneystar2 - why do you find his remarks 'extremely offensive' ? Are you German ?

[shaneystar2]

No ..but my my husband is chaptazbru and so are my children and he's had his share of crass remarks in this so called tolerant society in this country .

[emmie]

And i get fed up to the back teeth getting sl***ed off for being English, that is by the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish, all in jest apparently, of course.
I tried to take it in good part, but you have no idea how often this has happened and still does.

[shaneystar2]

Ah well them Em perhaps you can now see why I find his remarks offensive .
You don't like being slagged off for being English .Personally speaking I've never found this to be the case .
Having married into a German family and worked and lived there I was never once subjected to any slagging off for being English whatsoever .In fact I was welcomed with open arms .

[shaneystar2]

And also my husband was accepted by my family .My Mum could have been really anti having had a brother killed in the war .Thank goodness I was brought up by tolerant parents .

[emmie]

i have worked in many places, with lots of different nationalities, and the worse for so called ragging, pulling your leg, or just taking the Fosters, were the Scots. For the most part i took it, or gave some back, but it got me down, and it still does.

[emmie]

well good for you, not all parents, families who lost loved ones were. Times have changed, people like Patrick Moore are in a tiny minority, he is an old man, with a long memory, sad for him that he couldn't move on.

[chaptazbru]

But shaney you can't judge everybody by your family. Of course they welcomed your husband with open arms, any decent family would. And I don't believe for one second that the Germans don't call the English - of course they do, just because you've never heard it doesn't mean they don't!! I would suggest our society is no more tolerant than any others, or are the Germans all saints?

[Sharingan]

Mr Moore is forgetting and maybe so are some of the people posting on this forum that a lot of the victims of Nazi Germany were in fact Germans. Many of the Jews killed were Germans, many of the gipsies lived in Germany, many of the gay and religious victims were also German as were the Communists, all of whom were imprisoned and killed by other Germans. My sister Rivkka is named after a relative who survived a concentration camp and although I was born and brought up in England, my mother is married to a German and I now live there most of the time. You do hear many fewer references to the second world war and to England in Germany than the other way around, and here everything to do with Germany still seems to relate to a war that is now taught as history. As a Jew I am not prepared to hold onto a hatred for people who were not even born when those atrocities took place, as I find that most Germans are deeply ashamed of the actions of Third Reich and I am very comfortable living there. I have a hoodie with a Swastika crossed through and the words 'Gegen Nazis', but when I come home all I see in the news is that the BNP are rising in popularity and there is intolerance everywhere. Mr Moore was trying to say ' The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi', this is nothing to do with Germany as it is now.

[anotheoldgit]

Zeuhi

/// Any debate on Israel's behaviour (good and bad) soon produces 'holocaust leverage' both ways ///

One does not get one particular section of Israel's population always accusing the rest for their ancestors misdeeds.

It is the perpetual internal leverage that is in question.

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// It's like saying, "On January 8th 1833, slavery was abolished in England and literally from that day onward, black people were treated no differently to their white neighbours and looked forward to exactly the same opportunities in life. ///

No one is saying that, and I agree a certain amount of discrimination can still take place, although stringent laws have been brought in to dissuade persons against discrimination.

But constantly harking back to the slave trade does nothing to support a black persons argument to somehow gain more privileges than those of a white person.

No matter if one could prove that a black person was paid less for doing the same job as their white counterparts, or discriminated against when applying for a job etc etc condemning the British involvement in the slave trade will not better their chances.

Take yourself you are a self confessed black homosexual, who has I believe a very good job, if you were discriminated against for being black or a homosexual do you think you would you have got that job?

The leverage I am referring to is the constant use of the race card, there are many examples of cases were a white person has been given a job over a black person and vice-versa, but if the black person doesn't get the job he or she can shout discrimination, this lever isn't in the hands of the white person, and of course we have all witnessed the way black persons can take to the streets, if they feel they have had injustices served against them.

[Zeuhl]

One does not get one particular section of Israel's population always accusing the rest for their ancestors misdeeds.

Old Git - interesting point

Are Afro-Caribbean Brits 'always accusing' the rest of us for our 'ancestors misdeeds' in the slave trade?

As far as I can recall I've never been accused of anything like that.

(If I was I would simply point out the stupidity of the accusation as I wasn't around at the time and any direct involvement by my ancestors would only be conjecture.)

Or are you suggesting that the events concerning British involvement in the slave trade; our resulting maritime growth, the development of our main Banks, founding of Lloyds of London, new processing industries such as Tate & Lyle, and the massive growth in manufacturing to provide goods traded for slaves, equipment for the plantations, not to mention the chains, padlocks and neck rings should never be mentioned and ideally treated as though they never happened?

Which is it?

[Brenden]

Zeuhl, why are you not taking your concerns regarding the slave trade to the authorities in Africa where it is still taking place - try to get it abolished in the African continent if you feel so deeply about it - not in Britain where it no longer exists - then try asking them to get down on their knees and apologise (wish you luck). As you can tell I have now got the uglies reading these posts regarding slavery - am totally fed up with it being crammed down my throat, you have had an apology from our government and as my generation were not to blame you certainly will not be getting one from me.

[emmie]

Brenden, as you know my feelings on this, and i have said as much, that it has been acknowledged and apologies have been made, but i and my ancestors were in no way culpable, to the best of my knowledge.
They came from Ireland originally so who knows, they could well have been victims themselves. But it's as though the British and dare one say English are for ever having to apologise for things that happened centuries ago. Slavery was a vile trade, no one should dispute that, but we can't change it, so must move forward.
The slave trade continues in many parts of the world, perhaps some would like to comment on that.

[Zeuhl]

Brenden

do you have trouble with your reading skills?

Why do you imagine I want an apology? My post just above (18.44 Tues) makes my attitude perfectly clear

But Mr Blair stopped short of issuing a full apology <br/> <br/> Quite right, only the person responsible can make a meaningful apology. By anyone else it's just crass. <br/> <br/> But we should all be comfortable in acknowledging what happened in the past - it's part of who and what we are as a nation - we should learn and grow from that acknowledgement. <br/> <br/> the alternative to acknowledgement is to suppress or distort the remembrance of those things and that is unhealthy, dishonest and cowardly [i

The dialogue you appear to have just blundered into is regarding the acknowledgement of past events or the suppression of 'uncomfortable truths.

Not about current 'concerns' over slavery or 'apologies'

[i]you have had an apology from our government and as my generation were not to blame you certainly will not be getting one from me. ]

No one on here - least of all me- has asked you for one.

So I suggest you go back to sleep.