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Is it impossible to be white and a criminal?
You'd have thought so by the indignation that some people feel when they are pulled out for a random search in airports.
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Look at the responses - 'the humilation I felt', 'the indignity of a pat down search, all to ensure security staff aren't seen as racist.
Should airport security focus their efforts exclusively on black and Muslim travellers? Should white travellers queue in a separate lane to everyone else? s
Perhaps a form of airport apartheid?
http://
Look at the responses - 'the humilation I felt', 'the indignity of a pat down search, all to ensure security staff aren't seen as racist.
Should airport security focus their efforts exclusively on black and Muslim travellers? Should white travellers queue in a separate lane to everyone else? s
Perhaps a form of airport apartheid?
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@ mike - a contradiction in definition perhaps. If we only assocsciate the word crime with modern legal practices then you are right.
It is just that I don't accept this connection; the word for crime was around befopre legal systems were a part of human civilization. After all, crime had to have come before human laws.
In my opinion it is a crime to sell massive quantities of defective drugs to a third world nation, knowing that it will kill millions in the process, just to save the expense the comapny has invested in their R&D. I remember such a case. A 'big pharma' company had sold the drug shipment to a French company because the FDA had banned the drug in the US. These I believe were AIDS drugs with fatal side effects. Many people died, including young children, but the company was not held accountable for this.
Similarly nobody has yet been held to proper account for the appalling crime of negligence in the Indian Bhopal disaster.
If you were to ask me I would say these are crimes, but if you don't believe people have the right to differ their definitions with the commonly used dictionaries of the day, then I of course understand your logic.
It is just that I don't accept this connection; the word for crime was around befopre legal systems were a part of human civilization. After all, crime had to have come before human laws.
In my opinion it is a crime to sell massive quantities of defective drugs to a third world nation, knowing that it will kill millions in the process, just to save the expense the comapny has invested in their R&D. I remember such a case. A 'big pharma' company had sold the drug shipment to a French company because the FDA had banned the drug in the US. These I believe were AIDS drugs with fatal side effects. Many people died, including young children, but the company was not held accountable for this.
Similarly nobody has yet been held to proper account for the appalling crime of negligence in the Indian Bhopal disaster.
If you were to ask me I would say these are crimes, but if you don't believe people have the right to differ their definitions with the commonly used dictionaries of the day, then I of course understand your logic.
@Baldric...
the OP's generalisation to which I was referring in my last post was the question "Is it impossible to be White and a criminal?"
In this question he is referring to a group of people known as "white people", or caucasians.
In my post, I referred to "White British nationals" - people who are caucasian, hold British passports and native to the UK.
We both referred to a group. Please explain to me how my sentence was more of a 'generalisation' than the OQ?
the OP's generalisation to which I was referring in my last post was the question "Is it impossible to be White and a criminal?"
In this question he is referring to a group of people known as "white people", or caucasians.
In my post, I referred to "White British nationals" - people who are caucasian, hold British passports and native to the UK.
We both referred to a group. Please explain to me how my sentence was more of a 'generalisation' than the OQ?
as i said at the beginning, of course not. Generalisations don't help though do they, they antagonise and irritate. Putting points across on AB sometimes is as though we aren't singing from the same hymn sheet, but most of us are. We know that you should not discriminate on the grounds of race, creed, colour, age, sex, but it happens.
thank you em10 :)
Im only referring to a group to which I belong - and in no way is what i said racist; in fact people studying social sciences or anthropology need to be able to distinguish races with different terms like Indo-European or Aryan-Hindoo - these are clearly defined and not racist slurs.
In my experience growing up in the UK among mostly white British nationals my personal experience has been one of witnessing changing attitudes among this group to Muslims - particularly after 9/11 and then 7/7 in the UK.
Even my own kinhave become more racist, altough they'd never admit it. Most of the increase which I have myself observed has been closed and not publically open racism.
Im only referring to a group to which I belong - and in no way is what i said racist; in fact people studying social sciences or anthropology need to be able to distinguish races with different terms like Indo-European or Aryan-Hindoo - these are clearly defined and not racist slurs.
In my experience growing up in the UK among mostly white British nationals my personal experience has been one of witnessing changing attitudes among this group to Muslims - particularly after 9/11 and then 7/7 in the UK.
Even my own kinhave become more racist, altough they'd never admit it. Most of the increase which I have myself observed has been closed and not publically open racism.
barcelonic2, //my personal experience has been one of witnessing changing attitudes among this group to Muslims - particularly after 9/11 and then 7/7 in the UK....... Even my own kinhave become more racist, //
I think a lot of people have become more suspicious and more wary of Muslims since 9/11 - but since Islam isn't a race, and with the constant threat of terrorism, that doesn't make them racist - it just makes them more suspicious and more wary of Muslims.
I think a lot of people have become more suspicious and more wary of Muslims since 9/11 - but since Islam isn't a race, and with the constant threat of terrorism, that doesn't make them racist - it just makes them more suspicious and more wary of Muslims.
@naomi
I agree. But what i mean is that typically many white British nationals do not make that distinction, so it leads to racism against certain specific groups. For example, Indians and even Indian-Brits often bear the brunt of that ignorance you speak of.
I have heard Muslims being called Arabs, and heard from Indian people who have been called Muslims, simply for the colour of their skin. So it is not true that non-Muslim asians within the UK have been spared from the changing attitudes since 9/11.
This is the UK lol - there was a case not too long ago when the media was wrapped up in reporting peadophile cases, and some men were arrested for trying to burn down the home of a paedeotrician, confusing the word itself with paedophile. Many of the ignorant people I speak of aren't exactly well-educated.
I agree. But what i mean is that typically many white British nationals do not make that distinction, so it leads to racism against certain specific groups. For example, Indians and even Indian-Brits often bear the brunt of that ignorance you speak of.
I have heard Muslims being called Arabs, and heard from Indian people who have been called Muslims, simply for the colour of their skin. So it is not true that non-Muslim asians within the UK have been spared from the changing attitudes since 9/11.
This is the UK lol - there was a case not too long ago when the media was wrapped up in reporting peadophile cases, and some men were arrested for trying to burn down the home of a paedeotrician, confusing the word itself with paedophile. Many of the ignorant people I speak of aren't exactly well-educated.
barcelonic29, I didn’t mention ignorance, I didn’t say that non-Muslim Asians within the UK have been immune from changing attitudes since 9/11, and I didn’t say that since 9/11 it’s prudent to be more wary of Muslims - although since you mention it, I think it’s understandable that people are. The fact is that people of all colours and creeds have been on the receiving end of appalling atrocities committed by Muslim extremists living among us in this country, and the UK is under constant threat of repetition. Over the past several years we have seen some of those who support such actions blatantly calling for the destruction of our society – in fact we have one ABer right here who freely admits he would like to see the flag of Islam flying over Downing Street. Additionally, we have watched some who, despite making this country their home, clearly hate the west with a vengeance calling for death to our citizens, for death to all who oppose Islam, and for heads to be removed from shoulders – and that has been done – and although most people are aware that every Muslim is not of the same mind, no one knows precisely when or where it will happen again, or, more importantly, who the perpetrators might be. Do you really expect people to ignore all of that? There is no doubt that we have an enemy within, but since we don’t know who that enemy is we have no way of ascertaining whether or not those with whom we are rubbing shoulders on a daily basis intend to kill us by detonating a hidden bomb. Therefore, just as the security authorities at airports are suspicious, so ordinary people are suspicious, but that uncertainly isn’t created by racism – it’s created by experience of what has gone before and the understandable fear of an unexpected repeat performance.
//This is the UK lol//
Yes, it is, but I can’t laugh with you because I fail to see the humour in this. People’s attitudes don’t change the moment they have their entry visas stamped, which is what you appear to be implying.
//This is the UK lol//
Yes, it is, but I can’t laugh with you because I fail to see the humour in this. People’s attitudes don’t change the moment they have their entry visas stamped, which is what you appear to be implying.
@Naomi - the 'lol' was meant in reference to the anecdote of ignorant 'paedphile vigilantes'. My apologies if you misunderstood.
Firstly Naomi, I think that really you DO know what I mean by a "white british national" so why mention "entry visas"? You know that I am talking about a group that predominantly is native to the UK for more than 2 generations.
Secondly, when I said "it is not true", I was in no way implying that you had claimed it was. Until I read your post, I did not even understand where the confusion was regarding that.
"but since Islam isn't a race... that doesn't make them racist" - That is the part in which you referred to the ignorance I spoke of. You were making the point that people are now more wary of Muslims, but that does not make them racist, which of course is true. I then went on to say essentially, 'Indeed; I concur. But you are assuming we all make that distinction which in my opinion is not the case.'
Do you understand now what I am saying is that if somebody is racist against a Kenyan Christian because of post-911 Muslim attitudes, that person is ignorance. When i said "...ignorance you speak of" I was giving you the credit of knowing what I meant. I apologize because we are in agreement but somehow my words seem to be coming across to you as though we do not.
Finally Naomi, are you saying it is 'understandable' to feel the way you described, or do you think it is 'acceptable' or 'prudent'? Just so we can clarify this.
Because from a lot of what you just wrote I'm left with the impression that you too feel more wary of Muslims since 9/11. Is this the case?
Personally I could not disagree more on that point, I'm afraid. There is in fact another thing all Islamic terrorists have in common besides their religion or cause: they are all human. Do I feel more of a threat posed by humans since 9/11? No. Do I feel more of a threat posed by Muslims (even at an airport or on a plane)? Not one bit.
Again my apologies if you cannot understand why I am not scared of terrorism or Muslims. I at least hope you're now assured some of the things I said were not meant to imply anything, and in fact didn't.
Firstly Naomi, I think that really you DO know what I mean by a "white british national" so why mention "entry visas"? You know that I am talking about a group that predominantly is native to the UK for more than 2 generations.
Secondly, when I said "it is not true", I was in no way implying that you had claimed it was. Until I read your post, I did not even understand where the confusion was regarding that.
"but since Islam isn't a race... that doesn't make them racist" - That is the part in which you referred to the ignorance I spoke of. You were making the point that people are now more wary of Muslims, but that does not make them racist, which of course is true. I then went on to say essentially, 'Indeed; I concur. But you are assuming we all make that distinction which in my opinion is not the case.'
Do you understand now what I am saying is that if somebody is racist against a Kenyan Christian because of post-911 Muslim attitudes, that person is ignorance. When i said "...ignorance you speak of" I was giving you the credit of knowing what I meant. I apologize because we are in agreement but somehow my words seem to be coming across to you as though we do not.
Finally Naomi, are you saying it is 'understandable' to feel the way you described, or do you think it is 'acceptable' or 'prudent'? Just so we can clarify this.
Because from a lot of what you just wrote I'm left with the impression that you too feel more wary of Muslims since 9/11. Is this the case?
Personally I could not disagree more on that point, I'm afraid. There is in fact another thing all Islamic terrorists have in common besides their religion or cause: they are all human. Do I feel more of a threat posed by humans since 9/11? No. Do I feel more of a threat posed by Muslims (even at an airport or on a plane)? Not one bit.
Again my apologies if you cannot understand why I am not scared of terrorism or Muslims. I at least hope you're now assured some of the things I said were not meant to imply anything, and in fact didn't.
Barcelonic29, // I think that really you DO know what I mean by a "white british national" so why mention "entry visas"? You know that I am talking about a group that predominantly is native to the UK for more than 2 generations.//
What on earth are you talking about? I didn’t say I didn’t know what you meant by white British Nationals – I presumed they are the people you feel are being racist - and you made no mention of those you feel are suffering racism being predominately native to the UK for more than two generations. You said that ‘Indians, ‘Indian-Brits’, and ‘non-Muslim Asians’ are being confused with Muslims, so apart from the ‘Indian-Brits’ – who whilst being British, are most definitely not white - the rest I could only presume would be immigrants, which is why I mentioned entry visas.
If the hypothetical person you claim is racist towards a Kenyan Christian were opposed to that man simply because he was Kenyan, then he would indeed be racist. However, since he mistakenly assumes the Kenyan Christian is Muslim, he isn’t racist – he’s wary. There is a distinction.
I am certainly aware of the threat of Islamic terrorism, and I don’t believe it’s something that any of us should disregard or dismiss lightly – we would be very foolish indeed to do so - but congratulations on your fearlessness. Let’s hope it never affects you.
What on earth are you talking about? I didn’t say I didn’t know what you meant by white British Nationals – I presumed they are the people you feel are being racist - and you made no mention of those you feel are suffering racism being predominately native to the UK for more than two generations. You said that ‘Indians, ‘Indian-Brits’, and ‘non-Muslim Asians’ are being confused with Muslims, so apart from the ‘Indian-Brits’ – who whilst being British, are most definitely not white - the rest I could only presume would be immigrants, which is why I mentioned entry visas.
If the hypothetical person you claim is racist towards a Kenyan Christian were opposed to that man simply because he was Kenyan, then he would indeed be racist. However, since he mistakenly assumes the Kenyan Christian is Muslim, he isn’t racist – he’s wary. There is a distinction.
I am certainly aware of the threat of Islamic terrorism, and I don’t believe it’s something that any of us should disregard or dismiss lightly – we would be very foolish indeed to do so - but congratulations on your fearlessness. Let’s hope it never affects you.
Sorry, just to clarify, I meant that the people who are whinging should get a grip. I didn't object to my five year daughter being patted down (twice) (she cried though!). They even asked us to take thing 1 and thing 2's walking reins off which we happily did. If you don't like the security measures put in place then don't use airports.
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