Crosswords1 min ago
In a new £10 million scheme, “uniformed” youth clubs will be set up in 400 urban areas
63 Answers
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It's got to be start, but will this type of thing provide the answer?
The report states that scouting etc are mainly 'middle class activities.
/// Andrew Stunell, the communities minister who has identified 11 areas that would benefit from the clubs, said: “If you go into middle-class areas you find middle-class scout groups and other uniformed youth clubs, but if you go to Tottenham they are much thinner on the ground. ///
As far as I know Scouting groups have been set up for years in all towns, villages and cities areas, and have received no government funding, they have been run on a voluntary basis on voluntary funds.
It's got to be start, but will this type of thing provide the answer?
The report states that scouting etc are mainly 'middle class activities.
/// Andrew Stunell, the communities minister who has identified 11 areas that would benefit from the clubs, said: “If you go into middle-class areas you find middle-class scout groups and other uniformed youth clubs, but if you go to Tottenham they are much thinner on the ground. ///
As far as I know Scouting groups have been set up for years in all towns, villages and cities areas, and have received no government funding, they have been run on a voluntary basis on voluntary funds.
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AOG/M-T
I think we may have all misunderstood the proposals. I've re-read the Telegraph article, and whilst the headline refers to 'scouts and guides', the actual story includes the following:
[i]In a new £10 million scheme, “uniformed” youth clubs will be set up in 400 urban areas with high crime and deprivation rates.
More young people will also be enlisted as police, fire and ambulance cadets under the plans.
The groups are more commonly attended by middle class children, but the Government is teaming up with Youth United, an umbrella group of youth organisations, to enlist less advantaged young members in areas such as Hackney in east London.[i]
So it looks like what is being proposed is the establishment of groups which includes girl guides and scouts, but isn't exclusively to create new dens. Also, I question your point about the religious background of the Scouting association.
Does a child have to be a Christian to join? I'm fairly sure that's not true.
And your point about mindsets is surely flawed? Look at the kids who focussed on sport from an early age, and excelled! Look at kids whose lives have been turned around by joining the armed forces.
You realise that there is a significant number of serving men and women who come from very poor backgrounds. The comeraderie and discipline instilled by the forces is something the Scouts embodies, doesn't it?
I think we may have all misunderstood the proposals. I've re-read the Telegraph article, and whilst the headline refers to 'scouts and guides', the actual story includes the following:
[i]In a new £10 million scheme, “uniformed” youth clubs will be set up in 400 urban areas with high crime and deprivation rates.
More young people will also be enlisted as police, fire and ambulance cadets under the plans.
The groups are more commonly attended by middle class children, but the Government is teaming up with Youth United, an umbrella group of youth organisations, to enlist less advantaged young members in areas such as Hackney in east London.[i]
So it looks like what is being proposed is the establishment of groups which includes girl guides and scouts, but isn't exclusively to create new dens. Also, I question your point about the religious background of the Scouting association.
Does a child have to be a Christian to join? I'm fairly sure that's not true.
And your point about mindsets is surely flawed? Look at the kids who focussed on sport from an early age, and excelled! Look at kids whose lives have been turned around by joining the armed forces.
You realise that there is a significant number of serving men and women who come from very poor backgrounds. The comeraderie and discipline instilled by the forces is something the Scouts embodies, doesn't it?
M-T
No...well, only very indirectly. A mate of mine has a son in the Scouts. My point is that even if the Scout movement is based on Christian beliefs, that should not prevent anyone from joining, because, as you have confirmed, being a Christian isn't a pre-req.
So I don't think AOG's point about Christian and patriotic beliefs is a strong one.
No...well, only very indirectly. A mate of mine has a son in the Scouts. My point is that even if the Scout movement is based on Christian beliefs, that should not prevent anyone from joining, because, as you have confirmed, being a Christian isn't a pre-req.
So I don't think AOG's point about Christian and patriotic beliefs is a strong one.
sp1814
/// The groups are more commonly attended by middle class children, ///
That is an untruth, most of these groups have been set up in working class areas for years.
/// Also, I question your point about the religious background of the Scouting association. ///
No one does not have to be a Christian to join, but they must be prepared to accept the involvement in Christianity by the Scouts ie 'Prayers' and Church Parades.
In his final letter to the Scouts, Baden-Powell wrote:
...I have had a most happy life and I want each one of you to have a happy life too. I believe that God put us in this jolly world to be happy and enjoy life. Happiness does not come from being rich, nor merely being successful in your career, nor by self-indulgence. One step towards happiness is to make yourself healthy and strong while you are a boy, so that you can be useful and so you can enjoy life when you are a man. Nature study will show you how full of beautiful and wonderful things God has made the world for you to enjoy. Be contented with what you have got and make the best of it. Look on the bright side of things instead of the gloomy one. But the real way to get happiness is by giving out happiness to other people. Try and leave this world a little better than you found it and when your turn comes to die, you can die happy in feeling that at any rate you have not wasted your time but have done your best. 'Be Prepared' in this way, to live happy and to die happy — stick to your Scout Promise always — even after you have ceased to be a boy — and God help you to do it.
Could one say better than that?
/// The groups are more commonly attended by middle class children, ///
That is an untruth, most of these groups have been set up in working class areas for years.
/// Also, I question your point about the religious background of the Scouting association. ///
No one does not have to be a Christian to join, but they must be prepared to accept the involvement in Christianity by the Scouts ie 'Prayers' and Church Parades.
In his final letter to the Scouts, Baden-Powell wrote:
...I have had a most happy life and I want each one of you to have a happy life too. I believe that God put us in this jolly world to be happy and enjoy life. Happiness does not come from being rich, nor merely being successful in your career, nor by self-indulgence. One step towards happiness is to make yourself healthy and strong while you are a boy, so that you can be useful and so you can enjoy life when you are a man. Nature study will show you how full of beautiful and wonderful things God has made the world for you to enjoy. Be contented with what you have got and make the best of it. Look on the bright side of things instead of the gloomy one. But the real way to get happiness is by giving out happiness to other people. Try and leave this world a little better than you found it and when your turn comes to die, you can die happy in feeling that at any rate you have not wasted your time but have done your best. 'Be Prepared' in this way, to live happy and to die happy — stick to your Scout Promise always — even after you have ceased to be a boy — and God help you to do it.
Could one say better than that?
/// So I don't think AOG's point about Christian and patriotic beliefs is a strong one. ///
How else do you explain the Scout's annual St George's Church Parade, the carrying of the Union flag, and the allegiance to Queen and Country.
http://
How else do you explain the Scout's annual St George's Church Parade, the carrying of the Union flag, and the allegiance to Queen and Country.
http://
AOG
I think you might be thinking of the Boy's Brigade.
From Wikipedia:
Religion in Scouting and Guiding is an aspect of the Scout method that has been practiced differently and given different interpretations over the years.
In contrast to the Christian-only Boys' Brigade, which started two decades earlier, Robert Baden-Powell founded the Scout movement as a youth organisation (with boys as 'Scouts' and girls as 'Guides'), which was independent of any single faith or religion, yet still held that spirituality and a belief in a higher power were key to the development of young people.
Scouting organisations are free to interpret the method as laid down by the founder.
As the modern world has become more secular and as many societies have become more religiously diverse, this has caused misunderstandings and controversies in some of the national member organisations.
I think you might be thinking of the Boy's Brigade.
From Wikipedia:
Religion in Scouting and Guiding is an aspect of the Scout method that has been practiced differently and given different interpretations over the years.
In contrast to the Christian-only Boys' Brigade, which started two decades earlier, Robert Baden-Powell founded the Scout movement as a youth organisation (with boys as 'Scouts' and girls as 'Guides'), which was independent of any single faith or religion, yet still held that spirituality and a belief in a higher power were key to the development of young people.
Scouting organisations are free to interpret the method as laid down by the founder.
As the modern world has become more secular and as many societies have become more religiously diverse, this has caused misunderstandings and controversies in some of the national member organisations.
So - we can forget Christianity as being an issue here...and further to the St George's Day parades, we have to remember the article is wrong to focus on Scouts and Guides. That's the headline, but the funding will cover other organisations (cadets for example).
So, I don't see how attendance or non-attendance of any parades would be an issue.
So, I don't see how attendance or non-attendance of any parades would be an issue.
/// As the modern world has become more secular and as many societies have become more religiously diverse, this has caused misunderstandings and controversies in some of the national member organisations. ///
Exactly, that is why one could not see members of some religions going into a Christian Church to pray to God on St Georges Day.
So - we can forget Christianity as being an issue here..as you put it.
What is your take on some of these youngsters joining the Police Cadets?
Exactly, that is why one could not see members of some religions going into a Christian Church to pray to God on St Georges Day.
So - we can forget Christianity as being an issue here..as you put it.
What is your take on some of these youngsters joining the Police Cadets?
AOG
Sorry, but I'm finding it difficult to keep up with the point you're trying to make.
1. Why would non-Christians go to a Christian church to worship?
2. What is the link between St George's Day and Christianity? I know he's a patron saint, but surely you don't have to be a Christian to celebrate St George's Day?
But back to my previous point - seeing as the Scouts and Brownies do not rule out non-Christians, would you agree that not being a Christian isn't an issue?
Sorry, but I'm finding it difficult to keep up with the point you're trying to make.
1. Why would non-Christians go to a Christian church to worship?
2. What is the link between St George's Day and Christianity? I know he's a patron saint, but surely you don't have to be a Christian to celebrate St George's Day?
But back to my previous point - seeing as the Scouts and Brownies do not rule out non-Christians, would you agree that not being a Christian isn't an issue?
sp1814
I know it is Sunday but you are making it so much hard work for me.
/// 1. Why would non-Christians go to a Christian church to worship? ///
No one is saying that non-Christians go to a Christian church to worship, only that Scouts go to the Church on St George's Day.
/// 2. What is the link between St George's Day and Christianity? I know he's a patron saint, but surely you don't have to be a Christian to celebrate St George's Day? ///
Well to be pedantic the secret lies in the letters St. meaning Saint. and the fact that the Scouts hold a 'CHURCH' parade each year on St George's Day.
Also I have already stated that one does not have to be a Christian the join the scouts, and why would a non-Christian want to celebrate St George's Day?
I know it is Sunday but you are making it so much hard work for me.
/// 1. Why would non-Christians go to a Christian church to worship? ///
No one is saying that non-Christians go to a Christian church to worship, only that Scouts go to the Church on St George's Day.
/// 2. What is the link between St George's Day and Christianity? I know he's a patron saint, but surely you don't have to be a Christian to celebrate St George's Day? ///
Well to be pedantic the secret lies in the letters St. meaning Saint. and the fact that the Scouts hold a 'CHURCH' parade each year on St George's Day.
Also I have already stated that one does not have to be a Christian the join the scouts, and why would a non-Christian want to celebrate St George's Day?
AOG
Still not a big deal.
I went to a CofE school, and we had prayers at assembly. I've never believed in God, and just went with it.
Not an issue then.
Also, and here's the big one - not everywhere actually HAS St George's Day parades. Therefore non-attendance of a non-existant parade is surely nothing to worry about.
And I have to repeat once again - the headline in the story in Telegraph is wrong. If you look at the article closely, you can see that there are an umber of groups which will be funded, rather than JUST the Scouts and Brownies.
So, if religion isn't an issue, what is???
Still not a big deal.
I went to a CofE school, and we had prayers at assembly. I've never believed in God, and just went with it.
Not an issue then.
Also, and here's the big one - not everywhere actually HAS St George's Day parades. Therefore non-attendance of a non-existant parade is surely nothing to worry about.
And I have to repeat once again - the headline in the story in Telegraph is wrong. If you look at the article closely, you can see that there are an umber of groups which will be funded, rather than JUST the Scouts and Brownies.
So, if religion isn't an issue, what is???
AOG
I assumed something you wrote earlier to be true...but it isn't.
Scouts don't hold a church parade every year.
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouts'_Day
Specifically:
ST GEORGE'S DAY
Until recently in the UK, Scouting Districts would celebrate the day with a parade of the groups and sections to a church where a service is held where the Scouts re-affirm the Scout Promise.
However, it is becoming more difficult to encourage participation by the youth membership, so many Districts forego the parade and church service in place of a more family oriented day. The focus of the day is still the affirmation of the Promise by all members.
I assumed something you wrote earlier to be true...but it isn't.
Scouts don't hold a church parade every year.
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouts'_Day
Specifically:
ST GEORGE'S DAY
Until recently in the UK, Scouting Districts would celebrate the day with a parade of the groups and sections to a church where a service is held where the Scouts re-affirm the Scout Promise.
However, it is becoming more difficult to encourage participation by the youth membership, so many Districts forego the parade and church service in place of a more family oriented day. The focus of the day is still the affirmation of the Promise by all members.
sp1814
/// I assumed something you wrote earlier to be true...but it
isn't. ///
/// Scouts don't hold a church parade every year. ///
so many Districts forego the parade and church service in place of a more family oriented day
The answer lies in those words 'Many Districts'
So it is still true that the Scouts do hold a Church Parade on St Georges Day in some Districts at least.
I take unkindly to being accused of telling untruths, so therefore I won't be debating with you any further on this subject.
/// I assumed something you wrote earlier to be true...but it
isn't. ///
/// Scouts don't hold a church parade every year. ///
so many Districts forego the parade and church service in place of a more family oriented day
The answer lies in those words 'Many Districts'
So it is still true that the Scouts do hold a Church Parade on St Georges Day in some Districts at least.
I take unkindly to being accused of telling untruths, so therefore I won't be debating with you any further on this subject.
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