Guns In America.

[andy-hughes]

I heard a converrsation today on Jeremy Vine's show in which two Americans discussed the recentg tragedy, and America's attitude to guns.

I am of the view of one of the participants, that overall, Americans are a violent people (generically that is) and that holding guns is now as much a part of the fabric of their culture as alcohol is in ours.

It appears that someone has seriously suggested that the children should have been armed to avoid being shot. So without wasting time on the mind-bending thought of a stroppy six year old sorting out his toy requirements with a loaded gun - is there really any way out of the American obsession with the right to bear arms which is enshrined in its Constitution?

Personally, I think that the population is so enamoured with the 'frontier' attitude that there is no foreseeable change, even after tragedies like this one.

People seem to assume that they are all the sensible people who know how to shoot, and wouldn;t just randomly kill strangers - that is 'someone else' - but the fact remains that people who are shot with guns tend to be gun owners.

I believe the the cultural shift needded would be started with an education programme that guns are ingerently evil, and not to be trusted, but what government would ever be elected on that platform? Obama is going to struggle to get assault rifles banned - so you can only shoot people one at a time, and not in bursts of thirty bullets simultaniously.

I have ideas what should happen - i know what will happen - nothing.

Your thoughts?

[dotty.]

obviously this one had a problem seperating the two ummmm, who in real life would go and slaughter little mites like that unmercifully and with weapons that could kill a body-armoured soldier? He was living in a fantasy bubble by the look of it and hi perception of normal behavior had been diminished by his obsession with ~COD or whatever other mind numbing game he was devoted to.

[LazyGun]

@Shoota - No legislation, however perfect, will guarantee that such instances never happen again, and given the prevalence and attitude towards guns in the US, I find it difficult to believe they will ever change to a more gun free environment.

It is very difficult to imagine any justification for allowing automatic assault rifles or sub-machine guns or machine pistols to be legally owned by a private citizen though. With their high rate of fire and large magazine capacity, they can create a huge amount of carnage in a very short space of time, so imposing a ban might at least limit some of the damage in any future rampage.

It would be much more difficult to go on a spree-killing rampage resulting in large numbers of fatalities, if you had to reload after every shot, or if the only guns you had access to were target pistols, hunting rifles or single or double barrelled shotguns......

There was a recent rampage of sorts in China, where the assailant was armed with a knife - 22 injuries, 9 serious injuries, all kids, but no fatalities - compare and contrast with what happened here, or even what Breivik got up to in Norway?

How many kids could Hamilton have killed in Dunblane, if the only pistols he had access to were .22 target pistols, rather than 9mm Browning automatics, or .357 magnum revolvers?

[andy-hughes]

LazyGun - I fnd it impossible to understand why anyone would want to won a gun -period.

To me, the best way of dealing with the issue is this - you ask anyone if they would like to own a gun, and if they say 'Yes', they are automatically banned from ever owning one.

[ummmm]

Dot - wasn't it one of the red tops that reported he was obsessed with COD?

[emmie]

a rough estimate of 300 million weapons in USA, some might have one gun, that means some have an arsenal. I do think that some who own these weapons are entirely mad, and that if this keeps on happening, schools will arm their teachers, or have armed guards patrolling the school.

[andy-hughes]

What a step that would be - to arm teachers to protect children. God forbid!

[shoota]

Lazy:
Para 1 - I agree.
Para 2 - I agree.
Para 3 - I agree.
Para 4 - I didn't know about that, I generally stay away from news.
Para 5 - It is actually easier to shoot a .22 more accurately than a 9mm or .357 so I can't agree with your last point.
Andy - I suspect you have formed opinions on 'guns' without any knowlege or experience of them other than what you have experienced through the media? A gun is a tool, no more, no less, it is folk that cause the problems.

[modeller]

That is the problem with written constitutions throughout the world, once written it becomes difficult or impossible to change. Every week we hear politicians saying nothing can be done because of an antique piece of paper that may have had some merit when it was written hundreds or even thousands of years ago. Of the latter I'm thinking of the Bible and the Koran both of which have a bloody history.

[ichkeria]

I don't know if anyone saw the interview on Newsnight with We Need To Talk About Kevin author Lionel Shriver. She made the point that there's a large constituency in the US who feel they need a gun to defend themselves against a hostile state. Those are the scary ones IMHO.
We had a spokesman for the gun lobby pointing out lord of crime statistics to back up his position. Of course in a country awash with guns it makes sense to want one yourself. The argument that if there were less guns this vicious circle would be broken doesn't seem to register

[joko]

i heard one woman speaking on a interview and she put it quite simply, in a way i think captures the reasons they dont want to lose them,which is if they are banned, the only people who have them will be the bad guys... the good people will be defenceless and the baddies will have all the power.

and in those words i do understand why it'd be hard for people to relinquish their arms.

i suppose its similar to the reason countries wont give up their nuclear weapons ... even though they will likely never use them ... because it leaves them open to attack... and the wide knowledge of their existence is what keeps them safe ...

its a sad situation

[andy-hughes]

shoota - yes my opinion is based on perceived attitudes, but that is backed up by evidence and wide debate - my point remains valid.

joko - I take your point, but we have to start somewhere. the notion that only 'bad guys' will have guns - tyhe problem is that if you increase the number of people who have guns, you increase the chances of those people using them - or, as statistics bear witness, provoking other gun users into using theirs - be they police, bad guys, or other gung ho citizens.

[Bazile]

//..I believe a gun is an evil object ..//

Surely to be evil , it would have to have a consciousness ?

Any evil comes from the person using it for to harm

[emmie]

according to various sources there were roughly 90 thousand wounding and deaths from guns in the USA this year, and it's not over yet. so not a little matter really. I wasn't suggesting they arm the teachers, heaven forfend.
But how is it that you send your child to school, and they end up being shot to death, it's doesn't bear thinking about.

[jno]

well, it's happened here, and I don't think the British are a particularly violent race.

[emmie]

it's rare here, but not in the USA.

[emmie]

its from 2009, but not good whichever way you look at it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5689760/Mass-school-shootings-double-in-a-decade-report-shows.html

[DTCwordfan]

andy - if you wish to live in the northern states, in the countryside (even suburbia), and without a gun, be my guest.....particularly when Mr Bruno comes to visit your property - and your bins, chickens whatever, never mind some other not very pleasant neighbors.

[DTCwordfan]

What does surprise me in this story is that this school had no police presence. My kids schools had this form of protection, usually older officers or ex-officers in uniform.....

[emmie]

perhaps no one thought this could happen to six year olds.

[ludwig]

I can't see it ever changing. There's too much money involved apart from anything else.