Another Shocking Story To Come Out Of Pakistan.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2351836/Smiling-sisters-shot-dead-dancing-rain-Pakistani-girls-15-16-killed-mother-making-video-stained-family-honour.html

/// The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan said at least 943 women and girls were murdered in 2011 for allegedly defaming their family’s honour. ///

Why is it always the girls who are punished for staining their families honour?

It is a pity they don't carry out such punishment on their men then there would be no need to crowd our jails with those evil gangs of child abusers.

[sir.prize]

jim360 - I understand what you mean. I have been looking for an alternative word - to no avail - so it has to be savages.

[chrisgel]

Perhaps barbarians would be a tad more polite.

[naomi24]

Jim, //this is just, sadly, normal human behaviour for many of us, much of the time. //

How do you work that out? You seem to be saying it's normal.

[keyplus90]

Sir –prize ; I gave my opinion on that thread honestly but as usual few people started twisting my words. When that happens then I just let people do that as I believe in positive debate and not in negative twisted verdict. I did say that those people were bad but also said that these girls have been victims of a failure in the system. I never blamed them and still few people associated that towards me. So I just ignore these things. And rest on that thread was rubbish (usual stuff) that does not deserve any time wasted on. And I will not comment on how you stand in front of your God and how I do because at least I know who my God is and how he should be worshipped. But I am not sure who you are calling your God otherwise I may educate you about your own religion.

Now let’s get back to this question, shall we? Same thing here as I said these girls too would re-appear or reborn and few people have twisted my words once again according to their own mentality. All I meant was that girls in other story are still alive and so are these (most probably).

////Chrisgel - Would you kindly provide a link that backs up your assertion./////

I did say that you would not find anything at least in DM where the propaganda has been wronged and unfortunately media in Pakistan is not as good or active as here but still I managed to find something from one newspaper “DAWN” in Pakistan and DAWN is a reputable source but I am sure it would not convince you and I know the reason why.

http://beta.dawn.com/news/777221/four-held-in-kohistan-video-murder-case

[sir.prize]

keyplus - you are the world's expert at twisting words. Regarding the little girls who were savagely sexually abused, it was you who placed the blame on the victims' parents. Shame on you.

[chrisgel]

Keyplus - Thank you for replying. I have a few comments.

1. I did not look for English papers to try to confirm what you said. I looked at The Times of India, Zeenews, The Hindustan Times and others.
2. //I am sure it would not convince you and I know the reason why.//
Oh really. Please feel free to tell me why you think this.
3. The link you provided does not confirm that these people have been found alive. In fact the very last sentence of the article says "However, Afzal said that with the arrest, facts about the killing of the girls would be revealed."

So you are right I am not convinced.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //DAWN is a reputable source but I am sure it would not convince you and I know the reason why. //

Why?

[jim360]

"How do you work that out? You seem to be saying it's normal."

Well, it's certainly all too common.

[naomi24]

Jim, it's only common in backward cultures such as the one we're talking about. It’s certainly rare elsewhere, and it certainly isn't “normal human behaviour for many of us, much of the time”, as you claim. That conclusion serves specifically to attempt to mitigate the appalling actions of societies determined to cling to barbaric tradition – and yes, they are savage. Why anyone would attempt to justify this cold-blooded murder – because that’s what it is - in any way whatsoever is completely beyond my comprehension.

[emmie]

keyplus, three women killed, two because they liked dancing, the other which i believe was the mother was in the way, so she was killed too, barbaric. don't you think that one can look at any number of sources, we don't all have to read the British papers, internet it a great tool for information.

[ummmm]

But but but...there was a line that said that someone had seen them...so they are alive.

[emmie]

not according to this

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pakistan-teenage-sisters-shot-dead-2014144

[jim360]

I don't think it's mitigating at all -- it's just a statement of historical fact, at least as I see it. Frontiersmen vs. Native Americans in the US, or Conquistadors v. Aztec, or Irish v. each other, or English v. each other, or everyone v. everyone else -- the list goes on. There are, sadly, far more examples in history of people being nasty to each other than nice. and it doesn't take much for people to turn nasty, or turn a blind eye to it either. Heartwarming stories of kindness are lost among the noise of overwhelming hatred and violence and horror.

That's the way I read history, and I think it's a reasonably accurate impression. Cases like this, however horrible just fit into that pattern. It goes on still today. Everywhere, to a greater or lesser extent. And to ascribe it to backward cultures, or savages or barbarians, is, I think, mistaken.

I don't think you can say that I am justifying this, nor even excusing it. I'm trying more to contextualise it, I think.

[sir.prize]

jim - you are quoting history. Why? Hopefully we have learned from history and become better for it. Surely we should be concerned with society in today's environment. But backward and mostly uneducated cultures are not the examples to follow.

[naomi24]

Jim, In saying //normal human behaviour for many of us, much of the time// does not indicate historical connotations. Comparing it to the current behaviour of the rest of the world would contextualise it rather more appropriately.

//And to ascribe it to backward cultures, or savages or barbarians, is, I think, mistaken.//

Why? Would you deem it modern, civilised, and compassionate behaviour then?

[jim360]

Of course it isn't compassionate or civilised to kill your daughters/ young girls for dancing. I'm not saying that at all -- and I would hope that you know this. This is hardly an either/ or situation.

If you (not you personally) describe people like this as savages then that distances "them" from "us" but fails to recognise that it doesn't take much for "people like us" to become "like them". Even now, you don't really need to go all the way to Pakistan to find similar examples of this sort of vile behaviour. In that sense calling these people savages doesn't seem to me to be at all accurate. Not because they are angels instead of savages. But because they are humans -- and so are we. And that is the frightening truth.

[naomi24]

Jim, I can’t speak for you, but personally there are no circumstances that would induce me to become anything ‘like them’, so to claim that since we are all human we are all capable of committing similar acts of barbarism is really an insult to the majority of the human race. Of course you don’t need to go to Pakistan to find similar examples. People ‘like them’ are among those emigrating from their native lands to the western world – and bringing their own particular brand of savagery with them.

[jim360]

Any one individual can be good or not, and please don't think I'm trying to imply that you aren't. But -- well, I don't know, have you seen how little it takes for people in this country to go just a bit mad, even in a small way? I don't exactly mean to compare killing children to the 2011 August Riots, but they both seem to me to have the same origin. It wasn't really some criminal underclass rioting in 2011, there was a surprisingly large number of otherwise ordinary people who joined in. And this, really, is what I am driving at. There are a great many people who, while they would never dream of killing someone in cold blood, don't need too much of an excuse to go a bit mental and lawless in other ways.

It doesn't take me much effort to not kill people at random, either. But experiments and history have both shown that it doesn't take all that much effort for ordinary people to turn nasty, very nasty indeed.

At any rate, to pretend that the natural state of humanity is to be nice and kind to everybody -- or, perhaps, to say that such behaviour is unusual, or reserved only for savages -- is to pull the wool over your eyes. Even in living memory we have examples of it in this country, and in countries we used to rule over. The point then is that to regard such people as savages is to pretend that they are not human -- but they are, and so are we.

[Davethedog]

Jim, there is absolutely no validity to your argument, in fact it sounds specious, not saying it is just sounds it. To compare civil disobedience to the religiously sanctioned murder of 3 women, is just plain wrong.

You state “there was a surprisingly large number of otherwise ordinary people who joined in” but they did it in a spontaneous way, honour killing is a given in Islam, as we can see from our friend Keyplus, no condemnation no actual pointing finger, just dancing around the subject.

Your argument actual undermines your point, when organised human beings can turn nasty, that is what Islam appears to do, it authorises murder, in this case because of honour.

I ask you to give me an example of how any civil disobedience in the west has led to an honour killing?

[jim360]

"honour killing" is something that appears to be associated entirely with Islam, but perhaps a more pertinent example would be what went on during the Mau Mau uprising -- when both sides were as brutal to each other as they were to those caught up in the middle. I was wanting to avoid mentioning the blood-curdling examples, but they aren't too difficult to find.

I think it's true that it doesn't take much for many humans to turn nasty, be that in small ways or large. And history and experiment back me up on this.