Ni Amnesty

[jake-the-peg]

here seems to have been a robust response to the suggestion that we should no longer investigate and prosecute offences that happened as part of the 'troubles' in NI

Is it time though to go further and declare an amnesty against all such offences whether committed by paramilitaries, soldiers or police.

Certainly some victims famillies will be against it - whether those who want soldiers prosecuted for Bloody Sunday or those still looking for prosecutions over the Enniskillin bombing - but now 20 years and more on is it time to draw a line under the past?

[youngmafbog]

Well if it happens for both sides then maybe. but i can't see declaring an amnesty for one side and not the other being very useful.

[andy-hughes]

I would be against an amnesty of this type.

It infers that the passage of time somehow lessens the importance and impact of crimes on the people involved, and the country as a whole.

This is not a stance with which i would feel comfortable.

The notion that what is in effect a statute of limitations is being introduced for murder and terrorist offences does not send the correct message to criminals in this country, or indeed elsewhere in the world.

Knowing that the clock is ticking towards a future date when your crime(s) will become beyond redress seems a strange system of fairness and justice firmly on the side of the criminals.

[sandyRoe]

People want the truth more than anything else. To see a killer in the dock, whether he's a former member of a paramilitary group or one of the state functionaries, like the Bloody Sunday Paras, won't bring their loved ones back.
People convicted now of a murder committed before the Good Friday agreement serve only two years. That's an amnesty of sorts.
A truth commission to help bring answers might be the way forward.

[andy-hughes]

sandyroe - "People want the truth more than anything else. To see a killer in the dock, whether he's a former member of a paramilitary group or one of the state functionaries, like the Bloody Sunday Paras, won't bring their loved ones back."

No - people want justice more than anything else.

Seeing a killer convicted won't bring a loved one back, but it beats the hell out of seeing him walking free because the government arbitrarily decided to give him a Get Out Of Jail Free Card.

[sandyRoe]

There are 'get out of jail cards' and there are 'never run any risk of seeing the inside of a cell cards'. Government functionaries, as you'd expect re handed the latter.
People who have long since given up any hope of seeing justice for members of their family who were killed would reluctantly settle for a truthful account of how their loved one died.

[sandyRoe]

are handed...^

[andy-hughes]

sandy - "People who have long since given up any hope of seeing justice for members of their family who were killed would reluctantly settle for a truthful account of how their loved one died."

I think it is one thing for a bereaved family or individual to take the decision that justice is unlikely to be forthcoming due to the passage of time, but to see it destroyed by a deliberate act of arbitrary policy by some government suits would be much harder to stomach.

Justice is rarely perfect - but that is no excuse to simply abandon it's pursuit because time has passed.

Simon Wiesnthal would turn in his grave.

[jomifl]

If geriatric nazis can be dragged out of old folks homes and tried for war crimes then I don't see why Irish of any colour should be immune. Murdering anyone, even in a 'good' cause is indefensible unless they are 'at war' ie Osama bin Laden and his henchmen.

[paddywak]

What's next? will we simply forget about a murder because we've not caught anybody after twenty years.These people are murders what ever their cause,religion or status and should be brought to justice however long it takes.

[sandyRoe]

The geriatric Nazis no longer have any political clout. The Irish prisoners did. Their early release in the UK and Ireland was necessary to secure the peace, as was the agreement that people convicted of earlier killings would serve no more than 2 years.

[sandyRoe]

Incidentally, the first two murderers to be released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement were British soldiers who were serving life sentences for killing a young man in Belfast.

[andy-hughes]

Sandy - "The geriatric Nazis no longer have any political clout."

Again I am mystified by your position - it appears that justice and punishment are now offered on a sliding scale with political influence as the yardstick.

Last time I looked, murder was a crime, not a crime unless you have political clout and a certain time period has passed, in which case you are able to teflon away from your crime because it has been dealt away in the pursuit of some higher cause.

The marine in the recent murder case (there's that pesky word again!) could have used some of that clout, and maybe people to look the other way for the required timescale.

[jake-the-peg]

Trouble is Andy you seem to have a particular view of what justice is

That's not such a clear issue in a place like Northern Ireland

Where laws were passed to keep one party in a position of power and those on the outside told 'We must all respect the rule of law'

These are not simple criminal acts and it's that acknowledgement rather than just the passage of time that is behind the logic.

It's only with the passage of time that more people are able to admit that.

[sandyRoe]

Andy-hughes, do you honestly believe that political clout plays no part in how justice is meted out to some? You may not be old enough to remember Capt Mendoza and Lt Caley in Vietnam who were convicted of murdering hundreds on innocent civilian. They both were convicted and served about 18 months in custody. The Bloody Sunday Paras never had their accounts of that day tested in a criminal court.

[andy-hughes]

jake - "Trouble is Andy you seem to have a particular view of what justice is ..."

I don't think the issue arises because of my 'particular view of what justice is ...' - do you?

My view of justice is very simple - crimes receive appropriate punishment, it's not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.

The problem is, some people seem to want to think that justice has geographical limitations - and the bits that don't suit don't have to be worried about if your locale of criminal activity happens to be Northern Ireland.

Nope - can't get my head around that one. If that's the case, then how about terrorist attrocities in Afghanistan - that's even further away, so their largesse to act as they please must be correspondingly extended - and that means they can do as they please any day.

Laws in a civilised society exist and are enforced anywhere and everywhere within that civilised society.

People don't start tefloning away under the guise of some behind the biliard hall chat with unelected individuals who like to underline their points of view by removing dissenters' kneecaps without the benefit of surgical proceedure.

[andy-hughes]

sandyRoe - "You may not be old enough to remember Capt Mendoza and Lt Caley in Vietnam who were convicted of murdering hundreds on innocent civilian."

I am old enough, and I'll thank you not to patronise me with your ongoing 'wisdom' that these things go on, and because they have gone on, it is perfectly OK for them to continue going on.

It is not OK - it wasn't OK in Viet Nam, and it's not OK now, and abhorrant inferences of custom and practice do make it OK.

[VHG]

So we carry on prosecuting famous DJs and TV celebrities who may have slept with a underage girl 40 or 50 years ago, but let off someone who may have planted a bomb killing and maiming innocent people.

Does not make sense.

[andy-hughes]

Indeed VHG - if Rolf Harris and Dave Lee Travis have any 'political clout' lurking away anywhere, they'd better get it out and get it cranked up - either that or a quick flit to Northern Ireland may be a quicker option - apparently the law is about to be applied differently over there.

[jake-the-peg]

//My view of justice is very simple //

That, I think is the problem

You see these as simple criminal cases

I don't

When you have paramilitary groups who have the backing of significant minorities or even majorities of the population that is not the same thing.

How do you think the Republic of Ireland came into being?

Do you suppose Britain turned around in 1921 and said -- ' Right-oh guys you've asked nicely long enough - you can have your independance' ?

No

Michael Collins and the IRB bombed and assassinated the British government into it - but even then they split the country up.

Were they criminals?

What about George Washington?

or does the passage of that amount of time make a difference?