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Is WW1 depicted fairly in the various comedic productions mentioned in this link?
For example Gove says:
"He added: "The conflict has, for many, been seen through the fictional prism of dramas such as Oh, What a Lovely War!, The Monocled Mutineer and Blackadder, as a misbegotten shambles - a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.
"Even to this day there are left-wing academics all too happy to feed those myths.""
Now I should point out that my own knowledge of the actual situations and events is limited so I'm trying to be neutral here.
Is WW1 depicted fairly in the various comedic productions mentioned in this link?
For example Gove says:
"He added: "The conflict has, for many, been seen through the fictional prism of dramas such as Oh, What a Lovely War!, The Monocled Mutineer and Blackadder, as a misbegotten shambles - a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.
"Even to this day there are left-wing academics all too happy to feed those myths.""
Now I should point out that my own knowledge of the actual situations and events is limited so I'm trying to be neutral here.
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Anything that prompts someone to find out more about a subject is a good thing, it's where you accept a single source at face value that the danger lies
A bit of pedantry: Stephen Fry played General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett VC KCB DSO; Geoffrey Palmer played Haig, sweeping the toy soldiers off the battlefield into the dustbin
A bit of pedantry: Stephen Fry played General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett VC KCB DSO; Geoffrey Palmer played Haig, sweeping the toy soldiers off the battlefield into the dustbin
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@Barks
//A bit of pedantry: //
It makes a change, to be on the receiving end, for once. ;-)
Welcomed though
//Stephen Fry played General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett VC KCB DSO; Geoffrey Palmer played Haig, sweeping the toy soldiers off the battlefield into the dustbin //
It's clearly a trick of the mind that I suffered there: Steven Fry is, in appearance, behaviour and function fulfilling the real-world role of Haig. I could try to rationalise away the awkward detail of his character being named Melchett by claiming that this is purely for reasons of continuity with the earlier series and Geoffrey Palmer appearing as Haig was just an afterthought.
In reality, the Melchett character serves as a way to lampoon all generals without slandering any particular individual.
Portraying Haig as indulging his time in table-top wargaming was probably the nub of all the satire put into that series. The idea that commanders could relate to casualty statistics without ever setting sight on any bodies or cemetaries, to see it in human terms, or in acreage terms.
Table-top wargaming, I might add, seems to be a remarkably recent innovation. At least the version with formal rules. Correct to the period but only just (H.G. Wells books of 1911 and 1913). See: -
http://
//A bit of pedantry: //
It makes a change, to be on the receiving end, for once. ;-)
Welcomed though
//Stephen Fry played General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett VC KCB DSO; Geoffrey Palmer played Haig, sweeping the toy soldiers off the battlefield into the dustbin //
It's clearly a trick of the mind that I suffered there: Steven Fry is, in appearance, behaviour and function fulfilling the real-world role of Haig. I could try to rationalise away the awkward detail of his character being named Melchett by claiming that this is purely for reasons of continuity with the earlier series and Geoffrey Palmer appearing as Haig was just an afterthought.
In reality, the Melchett character serves as a way to lampoon all generals without slandering any particular individual.
Portraying Haig as indulging his time in table-top wargaming was probably the nub of all the satire put into that series. The idea that commanders could relate to casualty statistics without ever setting sight on any bodies or cemetaries, to see it in human terms, or in acreage terms.
Table-top wargaming, I might add, seems to be a remarkably recent innovation. At least the version with formal rules. Correct to the period but only just (H.G. Wells books of 1911 and 1913). See: -
http://
i don't think that those productions were showing in such a way,
they were however trying to show that war is a huge waste, of men and women, and that it isn't always clear as who is the winner in all the mayhem. Oh What a lovely war is an amazing film, if you take it in the same context, wasteful of men, it was no longer chivalric and gentlemanly, but mechanised, bloody and killed millions, whilst the wars before didn't, a global conflict, the like of which had not been seen before,
it does depict officer classes as buffoons, many were not, they got slaughtered just like the Tommies.
they were however trying to show that war is a huge waste, of men and women, and that it isn't always clear as who is the winner in all the mayhem. Oh What a lovely war is an amazing film, if you take it in the same context, wasteful of men, it was no longer chivalric and gentlemanly, but mechanised, bloody and killed millions, whilst the wars before didn't, a global conflict, the like of which had not been seen before,
it does depict officer classes as buffoons, many were not, they got slaughtered just like the Tommies.
nor is Blackadder a situation comedy, like Oh what a lovely war, it's a satire on a truly awful period in our history, it may be very funny, but a situation comedy it's not, that would be The Family with Zoe Wannamaker, awful as that is, and not in the same league. Many of the young men who died were from the officer classes, it wiped out those men as well as Tommy Atkins, and changed our hierarchical system for ever.
For those who are interested, there is a going petition to remove Gove from office:
https:/
https:/
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I notice that Gove does not object to WWII being seen through the fictional prism of any number of films like 'The dambusters'.
I'd suggest because they reflect the values of patriotism and heroism that he subscribes to.
Lets get this straight it's not teaching methods he's objecting to here it's the values he thinks are being taught.
Once again Gove is trying to instill his personal values on the nation's children through the History curriculum.
He talks about Honour, Patriotism and Courage and talks about the myths of a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.
Was I mis-informed?
Did the leadership not tell troops they could walk across the lines in advances at the Somme - or was that not a catastrophic mistake?
Did they not order the execution for 'cowardice' of hundreds of soldiers suffering from shell-shock?
Gove sounds like he's engaged in a foolish revisionist attempt to remanufacture History in a manner more to his pleasing.
Something I think Stalin and Mao Se Tung were quite fond of ! I think George Orwell would have had a field day with Mr Gove!
I'd suggest because they reflect the values of patriotism and heroism that he subscribes to.
Lets get this straight it's not teaching methods he's objecting to here it's the values he thinks are being taught.
Once again Gove is trying to instill his personal values on the nation's children through the History curriculum.
He talks about Honour, Patriotism and Courage and talks about the myths of a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.
Was I mis-informed?
Did the leadership not tell troops they could walk across the lines in advances at the Somme - or was that not a catastrophic mistake?
Did they not order the execution for 'cowardice' of hundreds of soldiers suffering from shell-shock?
Gove sounds like he's engaged in a foolish revisionist attempt to remanufacture History in a manner more to his pleasing.
Something I think Stalin and Mao Se Tung were quite fond of ! I think George Orwell would have had a field day with Mr Gove!
if you say so, i watched all the series of Blackadder, always found it funny, perhaps its the last series Blackadder goes forth i consider more of a satire, after all it does depict a very dark subject, period. call it what you like, it matters not, the real thing was far from amusing,
if you want an excellent drama on this try the Wipers Times, that was funny, sad, poignant in equal measure.
if you want an excellent drama on this try the Wipers Times, that was funny, sad, poignant in equal measure.
they did execute soldiers for cowardice, we now call shell shock, you can't put today's mores on that situation, you just can't. I know that it's shocking they did it, the French, Americans, Germans were no different,
they saw that deserting your unit, post could infect other soldiers, that desertion would carry a punishment so severe that others would think twice, more in fact. Now we know different, how war affects the mind, body, they didn't then, you didn't, couldn't walk off the battlefield.
as to going over the top, the leading officer took the men, not left them to do it, whistles blew and over they went.
they saw that deserting your unit, post could infect other soldiers, that desertion would carry a punishment so severe that others would think twice, more in fact. Now we know different, how war affects the mind, body, they didn't then, you didn't, couldn't walk off the battlefield.
as to going over the top, the leading officer took the men, not left them to do it, whistles blew and over they went.
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