Sensitive Subject But I Think We Are Up To It.

[ToraToraTora]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25612369
Is WW1 depicted fairly in the various comedic productions mentioned in this link?
For example Gove says:
"He added: "The conflict has, for many, been seen through the fictional prism of dramas such as Oh, What a Lovely War!, The Monocled Mutineer and Blackadder, as a misbegotten shambles - a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.
"Even to this day there are left-wing academics all too happy to feed those myths.""
Now I should point out that my own knowledge of the actual situations and events is limited so I'm trying to be neutral here.

[Kromovaracun]

I agree, Jake. Spinning World War 1 as though it ought to be a feature of our national pride - that we should all be patriotic about the fact that so many people were slaughtered so pointlessly in the name of their country - is just infuriating.

[emmie]

as to how WW2 is depicted, how would you expect, those films were not made yesterday but a few years after the war ended, the knowledge of experience, and historical facts would likely make these films somewhat differently. Also you don't make films during war time, nor somewhat after showing the true reality of warfare, because that would be a demoralising fact for the forces fighting, and for the families back home, having to endure privation, hardships, and endless bombing.
The young men sent off to war in WW1 had no idea what they would be facing, nor seemingly did many of the Generals, they still thought that they were on the fields of Eton, a short time into the war they all knew different.
Gove is not a bad man, i actually think he is right on many issues.

[emmie]

first the last time, no one spins it this way, it was mass slaughter, and when we come together at the Cenotaph no one is waving a flag in celebration at that fact, they bow their heads and remember the dead of all wars, and those caught up in conflicts today. There are always hero's, as there are villains, but sometimes the lines cross, i would never glorify the wars nor those who fought in them, but to continue to tell people we were wrong, misses the point, they had no choice in both wars,

[naomi24]

‘Blackadder Goes Forth’ was astutely written – and very poignant. It made me laugh, yes, but the stark reality of the final scene brought me to tears. No comedy there.

[ludwig]

Tony Robinson..

// "I think Mr Gove has just made a very silly mistake; it's not that Blackadder teaches children the First World War.
When imaginative teachers bring it in, it's simply another teaching tool; they probably take them over to Flanders to have a look at the sights out there, have them marching around the playground, read the poems of Wilfred Owen to them. And one of the things that they'll do is show them Blackadder. //

Exactly. Gove is making himself look a bit of a twit.

[emmie]

and that was my point about the programme, it was to make you think of the sacrifices,
i have read a great deal on WW1, studied it at length, and visited
many graves dedicated to the war dead, one was on behalf of some Australian friends. Relatives fought and died in WW1, as i am sure if anyone chose to look up their family histories would find, memorials to them abound, not least in our villages, towns, civic buildings and beyond

[Kromovaracun]

"no one spins it this way"

I'm afraid our education secretary does. Have you read his article in the Mail?

[emmie]

yes i have.

[Gromit]

Michael Gove Biog:

// Gove was born in Edinburgh; at four months old, he was adopted by a Labour-supporting family in Aberdeen. His adoptive father ran a fish processing business; his adoptive mother was a lab assistant at the University of Aberdeen before working at the Aberdeen School for the Deaf. //

And he grows up hating the Labour Party and teachers.

[emmie]

that many people's knowledge, perception would be swayed by programmes like Blackadder goes forth, could well be right,
that much of what we know now, they didn't know then, isn't it ever thus, we live and learn.

[emmie]

does he, how do you know that. As to Tony Robinson he is a left wing Labour activist, so hardly likely to agree or like Mr Gove.

[emmie]

does he ever says he hates Labour, if its in print somewhere, can you link it
as to Tony Robinson, he may not hate the Tories, but i doubt he is too keen.

[Kromovaracun]

emmie

Gove's article describes WW1 as 'a just war' and argues that the 'myth' of its futility and wastefulness is 'a Left-wing version of the past designed to belittle Britain and its leaders', and also 'virtues such as patriotism, honour and courage.'

None of this makes any sense unless it's assumed that talking about the wastefulness of WW1 is 'unpatriotic.' He also talks about how Haig has apparently been reinvented as a 'patriotic' leader - as if that wasn't blindingly obvious already, or as if that makes him innately more admirable.

[Kromovaracun]

(this is obviously in response to how Gove is trying to spin WW1, not his attitude towards Labour).

[jake-the-peg]

As to WWII depicted...

Emmie - you're missing my point here

Any depiction of a war is inevitably going to be seen through some sort of prism - any film maker makes decisions about what is included - what is left out

The dambuster raid killed 1,400 civillians and yet factories were working again days after and the dams rebuilt in 5 months.

It's difficult to objectively see it as a roaring success!

Yet I can't see Gove wading in and saying that this sort of film gives people an inaccurate historical perspective

He's not about portraying history accurately - he's about transmitting what he sees as Tory values to our children

He's a propagandreist plain and simple - that makes him unfit for that particular role in my opinion

[emmie]

he says a just war, there are many ways of looking at that, he does also qualify it, just meaning that the agression on behalf of the men who started it, and that is complexity in itself, would have seen an expansionism on their part, and that had we sat back and done nothing, what would have happened, same for the second world war, and no one surely believes that we should have sat on our hind quarters and let Hitler and his henchmen ride roughshod.
That one can take pride in our nations history, that sometime revisionists want to rubbish everything we ever were involved in, you see it time and again, empire, empire, as though that is all Britain has been about.

[naomi24]

Jake, //He's a propagandreist plain and simple//

Indeed - but no different to a lot of other people who massage messages to suit their own agenda – you do it continually. I’m not supporting him in this – and I vote Conservative - but if nothing else, let us at least be honest.

[AB Editor]

Excellent thread TTT.

Gove seems to have missed the point of British patriotism - much of it comes from celebrating remarkable failure and catastrophe. I.e. Charge of the light brigade. Pretending that WW1 was entirely glorious doesn't allow for that.

[emmie]

and you miss the point when many of those films were made,
Henry V with Laurence Olivier was a propaganda film, as wonderful as it was, made so that it would stir people, and not to give in,
St Crispins day speech is still one that sends shivers down your back.
we only know the truth of the matters long after the event, and not always even then. History is written by historians, and they weren't necessarily around at the time, so a comedy written by men who were nowhere near, nor perhaps knew a lot of the reality of WW1, that lions led by donkeys moniker has stuck and many still believe it.

[emmie]

Ab Editor, and anyone who knows anything or a lot about WW1 does not see it that way, that it was catastrophic in many ways, that millions of lives lost, but this first major conflict was always going to kill millions, mass production of guns, armoured tanks, even rather slow going ones were used. Flight was in it's infancy but they still used planes to drop bombs, couldn't do that before -
Gove does give his thoughts on the mass slaughter, i read the article.