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Stop Press ! Farage Apologises For Racist Remarks !
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Chilldoubt This is the point where I think Mr Farage is again 'playing to the gallery' To whit: "You're comparing a group of men to a nice family, whereas Farage was comparing them to criminal gangs." But Farage didn't mention criminal gangs. He just said a group of Romanians. In my opinion, I don't assume a group of Romanians to be criminals before I meet them....
17:45 Mon 19th May 2014
That's the nature of things, sp. People don't like other groups of people for all sorts of reasons. It's unfortunate that some groups are all tarred with the same brush, but that's life.
I think Mr Farage's general point is that we have no way of controlling who enters the UK from anywhere in the EU. Romanians have unfortunately attracted bad press (often for good reason) and this has given him the ammunition to play on people's fears.
The fact is that nobody asked anybody here in the UK whether we should open our borders to Romanians (or Bulgarians or Poles). It was a "given" that came with the evolution of the EU from a trading bloc towards a Federal State. Nobody asked us whether we wanted that either. The simple way to resolve what is clearly a contentious issue is to ask the electorate what they want (heaven forbid!). As I've said before, if the majority of the voters want the UK to remain in the EU (with everything that goes with it) I'd shut up. But none of themain parties will give them the opportunity and I can only think it is becasue they are fearful of the answer. Meantime the debate drags on....and on....and on.
I think Mr Farage's general point is that we have no way of controlling who enters the UK from anywhere in the EU. Romanians have unfortunately attracted bad press (often for good reason) and this has given him the ammunition to play on people's fears.
The fact is that nobody asked anybody here in the UK whether we should open our borders to Romanians (or Bulgarians or Poles). It was a "given" that came with the evolution of the EU from a trading bloc towards a Federal State. Nobody asked us whether we wanted that either. The simple way to resolve what is clearly a contentious issue is to ask the electorate what they want (heaven forbid!). As I've said before, if the majority of the voters want the UK to remain in the EU (with everything that goes with it) I'd shut up. But none of themain parties will give them the opportunity and I can only think it is becasue they are fearful of the answer. Meantime the debate drags on....and on....and on.
I wouldn't say so sp, not from your analogy.
The Campbell's sound like a decent bunch. I believe that Farage was pointing out that the Romanian's would be an unknown quantity, quite literally in every sense of the word. Given that some have gained a reputation for, how can I put it, taking advantage of the opportunity here to make a living from ill-gotten gains whilst falling foul of the criminal justice system.
Furthermore, we know there would be 4 Campbell's in total. Due to the current state of Immigration Services and checks we'd have no idea how many Romanian's would be moving in, how many intend to pay tax, toe the line etc.
It doesn't seem right that we could potentially be importing more criminals prepared to take advantage of the benefits of living here, when we have enough problems dealing with home grown ciminality.
Why do we put up with migrants who won't live by the rules in the UK yet are expected to act like model citizens when in other countries?
The Campbell's sound like a decent bunch. I believe that Farage was pointing out that the Romanian's would be an unknown quantity, quite literally in every sense of the word. Given that some have gained a reputation for, how can I put it, taking advantage of the opportunity here to make a living from ill-gotten gains whilst falling foul of the criminal justice system.
Furthermore, we know there would be 4 Campbell's in total. Due to the current state of Immigration Services and checks we'd have no idea how many Romanian's would be moving in, how many intend to pay tax, toe the line etc.
It doesn't seem right that we could potentially be importing more criminals prepared to take advantage of the benefits of living here, when we have enough problems dealing with home grown ciminality.
Why do we put up with migrants who won't live by the rules in the UK yet are expected to act like model citizens when in other countries?
Chilldoubt
Indeed the Campbells are.
But the fact is, that's exactly what happened to them. Their future neighbours appealed to the vendors not to sell the house to them, based on the colour of their skin and nothing else.
The neighbours had no way of knowing how many Campbells were moving in, nor what they were like.
Also, we need to be very careful about the word 'Romanian', because many people are actually thinking of Roma gypsies when they think 'Romanian' and the two are not synonyms.
Indeed the Campbells are.
But the fact is, that's exactly what happened to them. Their future neighbours appealed to the vendors not to sell the house to them, based on the colour of their skin and nothing else.
The neighbours had no way of knowing how many Campbells were moving in, nor what they were like.
Also, we need to be very careful about the word 'Romanian', because many people are actually thinking of Roma gypsies when they think 'Romanian' and the two are not synonyms.
"It's unfortunate that some groups are all tarred with the same brush, but that's life"
Sorry Judge, but this is a bit ridiculous. Pointing out that it happens a lot does not make it accurate or right or credible. There are lots of stupid things that are believed by lots of people - they don't suddenly get to a critical mass where they become okay.
Sorry Judge, but this is a bit ridiculous. Pointing out that it happens a lot does not make it accurate or right or credible. There are lots of stupid things that are believed by lots of people - they don't suddenly get to a critical mass where they become okay.
Mr Farage said that he would be concerned if Romanians moved in next door.
He didn't qualify the statement. This is what I think links his statement to my analogy.
Without knowing anything about the (hypothetical) Romanian family about to move next door to Chez Farage, he appears to be falling into the trap of judging someone based entirely on where they come from.
This is what happened (and my story is actually true) to the Campbells.
Interesting post script to their story. The son of the neighbouring family later went to prison on a drugs charge.
That elephant-sized bit of irony meant that it was the Campbells who should have had something to worry about, rather than their neighbours!
He didn't qualify the statement. This is what I think links his statement to my analogy.
Without knowing anything about the (hypothetical) Romanian family about to move next door to Chez Farage, he appears to be falling into the trap of judging someone based entirely on where they come from.
This is what happened (and my story is actually true) to the Campbells.
Interesting post script to their story. The son of the neighbouring family later went to prison on a drugs charge.
That elephant-sized bit of irony meant that it was the Campbells who should have had something to worry about, rather than their neighbours!
SP - I don't think that what Farage said is racism because I think it's an inappropriate word for prejudice based on nationality. It's a bigoted and stupid thing to say, but to me racism implies a different worldview that I don't think is being applied.
For instance, Andre Lampitt is a racist. I don't think Nigel Farage is - although I think he is someone who doesn't take racism particularly seriously.
For instance, Andre Lampitt is a racist. I don't think Nigel Farage is - although I think he is someone who doesn't take racism particularly seriously.
sp,
I believe Farage was using pre-judging Romanians above others as a result of these figures I just gave in an answer to ichkeria on another thread:
My point is that, precisely by his ridiculous assertion that it's OK to have Germans living next door to you but not Romanians, Farage exposes himself as a racist who actually demeans the argument of those who might have sensible reasons to worry about immigration. Ichkeria.
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I don't believe so. He was just using official figures.
Between 2008 and 2012, there were over 27,000 arrests of Romanians in this country. 9,540 resulted in convictions. The re-offending rate for all groups in UK is 26.8%.
I'd hazard a guess that Germans provide a significantly miniscule amount in comparable figures!
I believe Farage was using pre-judging Romanians above others as a result of these figures I just gave in an answer to ichkeria on another thread:
My point is that, precisely by his ridiculous assertion that it's OK to have Germans living next door to you but not Romanians, Farage exposes himself as a racist who actually demeans the argument of those who might have sensible reasons to worry about immigration. Ichkeria.
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I don't believe so. He was just using official figures.
Between 2008 and 2012, there were over 27,000 arrests of Romanians in this country. 9,540 resulted in convictions. The re-offending rate for all groups in UK is 26.8%.
I'd hazard a guess that Germans provide a significantly miniscule amount in comparable figures!
> Mr Farage said that he would be concerned if Romanians moved in next door.
> He didn't qualify the statement.
His statement was "no-one would want a group of Romanian men to move in next door." That is a qualified statement, as "a group of men" is something entirely different from "a family, called The Campbells (dad works as an administrator in a care home, mum is a nurse, and their two kids are in the sixth form at a local college)."
You're comparing a group of men to a nice family, whereas Farage was comparing them to criminal gangs. He was saying that there's a good chance that a group of Romanian men is a criminal gang.
Whether Farage was right or not to tar all "groups of Romanian men" with the same brush is one matter, but it doesn't help your case to build a false argument around what he actually said. It comes across as a bit desperate ...
> He didn't qualify the statement.
His statement was "no-one would want a group of Romanian men to move in next door." That is a qualified statement, as "a group of men" is something entirely different from "a family, called The Campbells (dad works as an administrator in a care home, mum is a nurse, and their two kids are in the sixth form at a local college)."
You're comparing a group of men to a nice family, whereas Farage was comparing them to criminal gangs. He was saying that there's a good chance that a group of Romanian men is a criminal gang.
Whether Farage was right or not to tar all "groups of Romanian men" with the same brush is one matter, but it doesn't help your case to build a false argument around what he actually said. It comes across as a bit desperate ...
Agreed Chill
statistically, a group of Romanians would raise more initial anxieties than other prospective neighbours.
But as we all know, it can be the most unlikely looking people who can turn out to be 'neighbours from hell'
I'm sure we'd all agree that people should be judged on their actual (not assumed) behaviour.
The heart of the matter is that anti social behaviour should be dealt with much more promptly and decisively than it appears to be - and regardless of the ethnic origins of those responsible for it.
statistically, a group of Romanians would raise more initial anxieties than other prospective neighbours.
But as we all know, it can be the most unlikely looking people who can turn out to be 'neighbours from hell'
I'm sure we'd all agree that people should be judged on their actual (not assumed) behaviour.
The heart of the matter is that anti social behaviour should be dealt with much more promptly and decisively than it appears to be - and regardless of the ethnic origins of those responsible for it.
I'm sure we'd all agree that people should be judged on their actual (not assumed) behaviour.
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Absolutely Zeuhl. I daresay stories abound of UK residents who have met the prospect of immigrant neighbours with some trepidation, only to be pleasantly surprised at their subsequent behaviour and work ethos.
Sadly, some let their respective ethnic community down more than others with their behaviour.
Such is life.
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Absolutely Zeuhl. I daresay stories abound of UK residents who have met the prospect of immigrant neighbours with some trepidation, only to be pleasantly surprised at their subsequent behaviour and work ethos.
Sadly, some let their respective ethnic community down more than others with their behaviour.
Such is life.
Chilldoubt
This is the point where I think Mr Farage is again 'playing to the gallery'
To whit:
"You're comparing a group of men to a nice family, whereas Farage was comparing them to criminal gangs."
But Farage didn't mention criminal gangs. He just said a group of Romanians.
In my opinion, I don't assume a group of Romanians to be criminals before I meet them.
For all I know, they could be a group of fellas working in bars and clubs, or a group of builders or a group of network administrators, or a group of ballet dancers.
I genuinely couldn't form an opinion on people moving in next door to me, until they did or said something to sway me one way or the other.
What we have now is a mirror image of what happened to my own family in the late 60s. I submit that once you've gone through that experience, it becomes rather difficult to inflict the same prejudices (and in this instance, it's real prejudice, in that people are being 'pre judged') on others.
This is the point where I think Mr Farage is again 'playing to the gallery'
To whit:
"You're comparing a group of men to a nice family, whereas Farage was comparing them to criminal gangs."
But Farage didn't mention criminal gangs. He just said a group of Romanians.
In my opinion, I don't assume a group of Romanians to be criminals before I meet them.
For all I know, they could be a group of fellas working in bars and clubs, or a group of builders or a group of network administrators, or a group of ballet dancers.
I genuinely couldn't form an opinion on people moving in next door to me, until they did or said something to sway me one way or the other.
What we have now is a mirror image of what happened to my own family in the late 60s. I submit that once you've gone through that experience, it becomes rather difficult to inflict the same prejudices (and in this instance, it's real prejudice, in that people are being 'pre judged') on others.
Ellipsis
A group of Romanian men could easily be a family.
Mum may have divorced dad and gone off to live with her new partner, leaving dad to bring up their sons.
Or...two dads bringing up their teenage boys.
Voila.
I think I may win today's prize for sheer facetiousness.
And perhaps another prize for spelling 'facetiousness' correctly without the aid of a spellchecker.
A group of Romanian men could easily be a family.
Mum may have divorced dad and gone off to live with her new partner, leaving dad to bring up their sons.
Or...two dads bringing up their teenage boys.
Voila.
I think I may win today's prize for sheer facetiousness.
And perhaps another prize for spelling 'facetiousness' correctly without the aid of a spellchecker.
sp; //I think I may win today's prize for sheer facetiousness//
I don't know about that but you are coming out with some pretty outrageous scenarios.
Why, if given the choice, wouldn't anyone like to have a say in who lives in the next house to them? Top of my list would be Saudi sheiks and Russian oligarchs, - all scumbags. If that's racist, I don't give a damn.
I don't know about that but you are coming out with some pretty outrageous scenarios.
Why, if given the choice, wouldn't anyone like to have a say in who lives in the next house to them? Top of my list would be Saudi sheiks and Russian oligarchs, - all scumbags. If that's racist, I don't give a damn.
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