Benefits To Immigrants

[naomi24]

In the light of recent events clearly something must be done urgently to stem the flow of immigrants into this country. Could the solution be to restrict all benefits to those who have lived in this country, and contributed to its public purse, for, say, a minimum of five years?

[kvalidir]

Well my grandmother is in her 70's AOG and happily she hasn't let her 'years of life's experiences' (and she's had quite a few interesting things happen) lead her to voting UKIP or being terrified of immigration. In fact her husband is from Macedonia.

[anotheoldgit]

/// Just because I KNOW what and where a kraal is does not make me a South African!! ///

And that is having something against South Africans ???????????????

[anotheoldgit]

kvalidir

/// There are without doubt quite a few people on here who hate immigrants, almost every thread turns into a general Muslim bashing contest, ///

Er, how many Muslim immigrants are coming into the UK from other EU countries?

[jim360]

dunnitall -- really I was responding to the idea that I must have no experience of immigration at all if I wasn't objecting to it. I hope I've shot this idea down. For the rest of your points: yes, space can be an issue and strains on services, etc., so clearly and obviously unlimited immigration will be unsustainable at some point. I'd just be wary of responding to this by putting a blanket cap, or tightening rules, in a way that is likely to have more effect on the people we'd want to come to this country than those we would not. Generally all rule-tightening has this sort of effect -- the people who would follow the rules anyway have to go to far more effort to prove that they'd be welcome; and those who'd break the rules anyway carry on doing that almost unabated. If I did have an answer, then, it would be to suggest better and tighter enforcement of the rules we already have, rather than introducing new ones.

[dunnitall]

Understand your point jim thanks, but I didn't say in all cases :)

[retrocop]

So there are truckloads of ex pats living abroad who would rather not return here.I wonder why that could be?????
Most ex pats are retired and live on their savings and pensions abroad.They do not claim benefits from their host country.They pay for health services if they are resident so don't swamp it because it is free.They genuinely contribute to the hosy country's economy.They still have to eat,pay utility bills and will not get pension credits and housing allowance fro their host country.
My only axe I have to grind with a few ex pats is that they do not try to integrate with the local population or even bother to learn their host country's language except beera or cjeveja or vino blonk.I avoid ex pats like the plague when abroad BUT they do pay their way and don't sponge.Not integrating and learning the host country's language is very much as our immigrants behave here.

[kvalidir]

I agree with most of what you say there, except that al OAPS get winter fuel allowance and there are quite a few benefits that are still payable abroad from here, but my real question was surely no-one seriously expects these other countries to keep our people if we refuse to have theirs?

[anotheoldgit]

kvalidir

/// I think we can set it back on track alice, if we all stop bun fighting.
For example can someone answer this, those who are unhappy with the immigrants who come here, ///

You call that getting the thread back on track, when what you have actually done is to start up an entirely different debate, but since you asked.

//// what do you propose other countries do about our expats? They aren't as welcome as you might suppose everywhere and there are truck loads of 'em who doubtless would rather not return here. ///

I would think they would do nothing, since those who have chosen to take up residence in other European countries are not a drain on these countries infrastructure, they are able to support themselves and accommodate themselves etc.

/// Can we expect other countries to let them stay if we close our borders to their EU immigrants? ///

And if our borders were to be closed you are not suggesting that we wouldn't allow the immigrants that we already now have, to continue to stay in the UK?

[anotheoldgit]

kvalidir

/// I agree with most of what you say there, except that al OAPS get winter fuel allowance and there are quite a few benefits that are still payable abroad from here, ///

For what they have paid into all their working life in the UK.

[kvalidir]

''For what they have paid into all their working life in the UK.''- or perhaps not.

[retrocop]

They contributed to their winter fuel allowance when they paid their N.I. in this country.They contributed to the N.I. for their state pension.As previously stated.They pay their way.Immigrants who jump off a lorry at Dover have contributed SFA and should not be entitled to any thing they have'nt contributed to.Are you one of those people who thinks the world owes you a living.Their is no such thing as a free meal ticket unless,of course,you are an immigrant and then I and others in this country have to pay for them through my taxes

[anotheoldgit]

/// but my real question was surely no-one seriously expects these other countries to keep our people if we refuse to have theirs? ///

We would not refuse to have theirs if they were able to support themselves and contributed to the good of this country, just as hopefully they would not refuse to have ours if they were also acceptable in the same way.

[kvalidir]

No retrocop actually I don't think anyone owes anyone anything, I started my first business when I was 12, nothing grand but it worked and the desire to be self sustaining was driven into all of us and expected. You wont find anyone in my family who is not self sustaining.

[retrocop]

Well why do you fly the flag for all those who come here who are not self sustaining?

[kvalidir]

I don't, I really don't, but everything said about immigration and benefits is just too sweeping, too unworkable and so often ( not suggesting this is the case with you at all) born not out of common sense because of legitimate concerns, some of which I share, but because people have unpleasant views about those from differing cultures to their own. Perhaps because I come form a Jewish mother and an Irish Catholic father I am super aware of the discrimination often levied at groups including my parents I am very concerned not to affiliate myself with anything remotely xenophobic. Perhaps because we have a lot of property business in Muslim areas I am aware that most Muslims are nice hardworking people, and actually one Muslim family help me IMMENSELY with my clothing business far more than they ever needed to, I am unwilling to tar everyone with the same brush. My grandmother's husband is Macedonian and he's also a super nice, hardworking immigrant, I do see things differently to some, but it my life experience, short and virtually worthless as it may be to some, so I can with a good conscience only go on that and what I learn from reading about current affairs.

[retrocop]

kvalidir
Yours and your family's work ethic is highly commendable but I do feel you should of,at the age of 12,devoted more time to your education especially History,than making money.Prejudice of all types has existed in all countrys throughout history.It is not acceptable but you can't change the past.Catholics v Protestants. Jews v Arabs. Nazis v Jews etc .The list is endless.Heard of the "Kinder trains"?This country has always held open it's arm to the persecuted.We do not welcome people coming to this country who openly hate us,contribute nothing but take all and belive we are a soft touch.Just read the thread title again.Your family is a melting pot that has come here and worked and contributed to the good of this country.You have earned the right to be here.Immigrants who have just dropped off the back of a lorry at Dover have not earned the right to any benefits here any more so than I have the right to claim benefits in Spain,Portugal or Greece.Don't you see this thread is about free loaders who claim entitlements they should'nt be entitled to.

[anotheoldgit]

retrocop

Well summed up retrocop, lets hope that has tidied up any misunderstandings?

[retrocop]

I hope so to AOG.This is getting hard work!!

[naomi24]

kvalidir, not sure what all that was about. I didn’t say these issues don’t affect you or anyone else here, and I haven’t mentioned your age. In fact until Ladybirder told me I hadn’t a clue you were a returning flouncer. Now, with respect, this thread is not about you or your family - it's about possible solutions to the country's growing problems of sustaining an ever-increasing population, and that's what we should be talking about.

[kvalidir]

I appreciate a lot of what you are trying to say but your knowledge of UK / Jewish refugee history is quite wrong though Retrocop. The Evian Conference which aimed to solve the problem of Jews fleeing persecution in Germany failed for the most part because both the US and the UK refused to take any refugees despite Hitler's assurance that the Third Reich would assist in their transport of the UK and US accepted them. The Kinder Transports also ostensibly failed with only around 10,000 children taken out of a promised 50,000, which I think anyone will agree was regretable ( history is a favourite subject of mine), so the UK's history of accepting refugees is not actually that sustained.
I'm out of this conversation now as i think I have said everything I can to put my pov across and I think it will further derail the thread if we continue along these lines:)