Am In So Much Pain. Is It Because I'm A...
Body & Soul0 min ago
Wake Up And Smell The Coffee.
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But how much longer can we stick to the monolithic Socialist blueprint on which the NHS was founded, when life expectancy was 10 years shorter?
The time has surely come to stop treating the 1940s model as a sacred cow, and to launch a mature debate on radical reform of the way the NHS is structured and financed.
I believe the debate should include an examination of successful healthcare systems overseas, which mix private insurance with public funding.
As Margaret Thatcher put it so succinctly: ‘The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.’
But will this happen?.........not a chance.
But how much longer can we stick to the monolithic Socialist blueprint on which the NHS was founded, when life expectancy was 10 years shorter?
The time has surely come to stop treating the 1940s model as a sacred cow, and to launch a mature debate on radical reform of the way the NHS is structured and financed.
I believe the debate should include an examination of successful healthcare systems overseas, which mix private insurance with public funding.
As Margaret Thatcher put it so succinctly: ‘The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.’
But will this happen?.........not a chance.
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They seem fair enough, I thought you where advocating wholesale change to the EU/US system. Those measures seem fine, not sure about the home visits though, I'm always wary of 100% exlusion/inclusion of anything but that's a small point. You seem basically to want reform GPs rather than the NHS itself.
JTH, I wasn't suggesting that money saved by scrapping Trident should just be "poured into the ravening maw" of the NHS. Of course, the health system needs improvement, but surely any savings from elsewhere would help sustain it whilst these changes were discussed and implemented.
However, I totally agree with TTT - a rarity, indeed! - that nothing should undermine the basically socialist principles, such as caring for the poor etc, underlying the NHS.
However, I totally agree with TTT - a rarity, indeed! - that nothing should undermine the basically socialist principles, such as caring for the poor etc, underlying the NHS.
Qizmonster
\\\that nothing should undermine the basically socialist principles, such as caring for the poor etc, underlying the NHS.\\\
I am sure we ALL agree with that principle, BUT is it happening.
Cancer survival rates for the UK are well down in the European league (although to be fair, they are improving).
Nursing care in Mid-Staffs and the falsifying of adverse statistics is indeed totally unacceptable.
So I ask again, not perhaps to you Quiz...........is there or is there not a problem which requires major surgery?
\\\that nothing should undermine the basically socialist principles, such as caring for the poor etc, underlying the NHS.\\\
I am sure we ALL agree with that principle, BUT is it happening.
Cancer survival rates for the UK are well down in the European league (although to be fair, they are improving).
Nursing care in Mid-Staffs and the falsifying of adverse statistics is indeed totally unacceptable.
So I ask again, not perhaps to you Quiz...........is there or is there not a problem which requires major surgery?
You seem to have tired of your thread, Sqad, and that's fair enough, but I'll just add one more point. When the NHS was being created in the late forties, doctors themselves were almost utterly against it. When someome asked Nye Bevan how he'd managed to get them to agree to the scheme, he replied, "I stuffed their mouths with gold!" In other words, he shut them up with money.
Maybe paying them too much has been the key problem from the start, rather than just some nutty modern Labour Party notion!
Maybe paying them too much has been the key problem from the start, rather than just some nutty modern Labour Party notion!
Qizmonster
\\\Maybe paying them too much has been the key problem from the start, rather than just some nutty modern Labour Party notion!\\
Absolutely correct.
I think that Harold Wilson was also attributed to that saying as well as Nye, but the fact remains that this was a method of keeping the NHS as the"Envy of the World"
Gp's and Consultants were overpaid and this was potentiated by the strong left wing BMA and subsequent governments both Labour and Tory.
A well paid job, gold plated pension, job for life and no competition, added to that "merit awards" basically for those who would give up clinical work to enter medical politics.
No wonder foreign doctors came to the NHS and hardly any British doctors emigrated to Europe.
it was "fill yer boots up time" in the medical world.
2006 exerbated the situation............more money less work.
How do you think that this juggernaut is going to be controlled?
Politicians haven't the will, the doctors haven't the will and most of all the electorate, who have never known any other system, are scarfed of ANY change.
\\\Maybe paying them too much has been the key problem from the start, rather than just some nutty modern Labour Party notion!\\
Absolutely correct.
I think that Harold Wilson was also attributed to that saying as well as Nye, but the fact remains that this was a method of keeping the NHS as the"Envy of the World"
Gp's and Consultants were overpaid and this was potentiated by the strong left wing BMA and subsequent governments both Labour and Tory.
A well paid job, gold plated pension, job for life and no competition, added to that "merit awards" basically for those who would give up clinical work to enter medical politics.
No wonder foreign doctors came to the NHS and hardly any British doctors emigrated to Europe.
it was "fill yer boots up time" in the medical world.
2006 exerbated the situation............more money less work.
How do you think that this juggernaut is going to be controlled?
Politicians haven't the will, the doctors haven't the will and most of all the electorate, who have never known any other system, are scarfed of ANY change.
University tuition fees were introduced in the UK in 1998, so virtually all doctors currently in senior positions were trained at public expense. Perhaps we should start by grabbing back some of the 'gold' we gave them to start with. I suggest a pay-drop of 50% for all of them!
I don't know how much consultants have to pay for the use of facilities in NHS hospitals, but let's double those fees straight away.
There are just a couple of spur-of-the-moment ideas just to be going on with.
I don't know how much consultants have to pay for the use of facilities in NHS hospitals, but let's double those fees straight away.
There are just a couple of spur-of-the-moment ideas just to be going on with.
Why is the Privatisation Model repeatedly trotted out as suitable for the NHS ?
The Private (Profit-driven) Model relies on two major cornerstones totally unsuitable for the NHS - namely, cherry-picked Customers, and siphoning off swathes of money to Directors and Shareholders.
Unfortunately Cameron's NHS concentrates on saving money. not saving lives.
The Private (Profit-driven) Model relies on two major cornerstones totally unsuitable for the NHS - namely, cherry-picked Customers, and siphoning off swathes of money to Directors and Shareholders.
Unfortunately Cameron's NHS concentrates on saving money. not saving lives.
A big problem in all of this is that the electorate does not have an appetite for reform that is gradual, costly or time-consuming - which worthwhile reforms usually are.
When a government is formed, people expect results within 3 or 4 years, if that. This simply isn't a realistic timeframe to complete the necessary changes to the NHS (and I think the same probably applies to education).
When a government is formed, people expect results within 3 or 4 years, if that. This simply isn't a realistic timeframe to complete the necessary changes to the NHS (and I think the same probably applies to education).
GPs don't commission hospital services directly though, that's the role of the CCGs - many of whom have commissioning experience before but some of whom have had to learn on the job. The acute sector services have always been commissioned through the services with the money from DOH, based on the needs of the local populations, whether it be the Health Authorities pre disbandment in 2002 or the PCTs until recently. The GPs' core services are funded now via the NCB, not the CCGs. It would be an interesting model to have GP services commissioned via the acute sector, and IMO we might well find ourselves back where we are now, if that ever happens - what does the acute sector know about primary care?
The whole thrust at the moment is to get patients OUT of the acute hospitals, which are hideously expensive to run, and into the community/primary care, which is why there is so much pressure on general practice at the moment.
You might like to see today's Roy Lilley blog, sqad. It might be said that it's a cynical view but it often says what people "up there" don't want to hear! http://
The whole thrust at the moment is to get patients OUT of the acute hospitals, which are hideously expensive to run, and into the community/primary care, which is why there is so much pressure on general practice at the moment.
You might like to see today's Roy Lilley blog, sqad. It might be said that it's a cynical view but it often says what people "up there" don't want to hear! http://
The NHS is the envy of the world but not for the reasons you often propound. Yes there may be better stats elsewhere there may be better procedures elsewhere. The NHS is the envy of the world because it's available, that's the whole point, those that can't afford it get treated along with everyone, we don't have guys sewing up their own wounds with cat gut, we don't have people dying because their insurer won't pay because they failed to disclose their great granny had an ingrown toenail. That's the point, the availability for all in contrast to the barabarity of most of the rest of the world. You still haven't said what you'd replace it with, I'm assuming some sort of US/EU based insuramce scheme. After you've dealt with the GPs of course!
When the NHS was formed back in 1948 it was to deal with illness. Now, as people have said it has become too big but part of that increase is in non-illness cases, cosmetic surgery being an example. Unless there is a medical reason, such as accident or birth defect, I don't think the public should be paying for cosmetic surgery to make someone feel better about themselves. A Porsche would make me feel a lot better but if I go whining to my GP, I doubt they'd be impressed.
But if someone offered you private Health care woudl you take it TTT?
I think for starters we should remove the view that private health care is a taxable perk. The more employers we can get to pay this the less stress there will be on the NHS so those using the NHS gain too.
That should ease quite quickly and buy is some time to reform the NHS. If we dont reform the NHS then it will cease to exist.
And while we are at it, no I dont think Johnny foreigner should come here and receive free care. Unless you have paid in for a period of time then you dont qualify, same for any benefit we have all paid for that is dished out willy nilly by the left who just love to spend other peoples money on their right-on ways.
I think for starters we should remove the view that private health care is a taxable perk. The more employers we can get to pay this the less stress there will be on the NHS so those using the NHS gain too.
That should ease quite quickly and buy is some time to reform the NHS. If we dont reform the NHS then it will cease to exist.
And while we are at it, no I dont think Johnny foreigner should come here and receive free care. Unless you have paid in for a period of time then you dont qualify, same for any benefit we have all paid for that is dished out willy nilly by the left who just love to spend other peoples money on their right-on ways.
Yes of course YMB but I have often found the service better at the NHS, I do have PPP from work and hav on occasion made use of it. Though in my experience the main advantage is to jump a queue, the functions are the same pretty well. Yes of course I abhor the health tourists who have never put anything in and we should look at ways of stopping that but they are no worse than our own WSS and if we we end up paying for some then I'd rather that than emulate the appalling systems elsewhere in the world.
