Where Have All The Women Gone?

[New Judge]

I've just watched an item on the news concerning the sentencing of eight men for the murder of mother Shehnila Taufiq, 47, her daughter Zainab, 19, and sons Bilal, 17 and Jamal, 15. They died after the eight set fire to their house whilst they were asleep. The family were Muslim and a local Mullah was paying tribute.

Nice photographs of Bilal and Jamal in their traditional dress with what looked liked holy books were shown, but none of Shehnila and Zainab. Scenes from the funerals were also shown. It was said many hundreds of people attended which was certainly supported by the footage. But among those hundreds I could see not a single female mourner.

Where are all the Muslim women? Why are they invisible? Did the mother or daughters have no female family or friends who may have liked to pay their last respects? I'm really puzzled.

[naomi24]

No surprise. Islam pinched most of its ideas from the Jews - the orthodox of whom also discourage women from attending funerals.

[Quizmonster]

As DTC said above, it was long a tradition in Presbyterian communities in places such as northern Scotland for funerals to be men-only occasions. There was no masculine compulsion involved whatsoever. In fact, my own two sisters did not go to the cemetery when our mother was buried in 2001, because they completely accepted that tradition. The only women there were the much younger ones in the family, so clearly things are changing.
This reminds me of the occasion when I had to attend church after decades of absence therefrom. I was appalled to discover that hardly any of the women were wearing hats. (Shock, horror!)
Traditions change. Simples!

[Svejk]

^who cares what people did in the past or that there's still other lunatic sects that do the same sort of thing.

[kvalidir]

I'm not quite understanding why this is directed solely at Muslims NJ when as you have heard anecdotal evidence from pretty much everyone that women generally through all societies are or were until very recently discouraged from attending funeral rites. If ever there was a mischief making thread for the sake of it (and it was as transparent as glass when you first began so not sure why it was all so cloak and dagger) then this is it. You aren't puzzled at all you are stirring things up for your own amusement so one side will leap to their defence and the other side will start Muslim bashing. Isn't there enough of both those things on here already?

[Quizmonster]

"Lots of us care what people did in the past" is the answer to your question, Svejk, and I'll bet you're one of them. For example, if you're married, did you have a Stag Night? If so, why? That's a pretty "lunatic" thing to do, isn't it? Plus, getting married in itself is just a tradition!
If I could be bothered, I would give you a list as long as your arm of similar instances of respect for tradition.

[ummmm]

I'm so glad you're not actually a judge.

[youngmafbog]

Looks like there are plenty of apologists on here prepared to allow it to happen in Britain today NJ, so I guess there's your answer.

Wonder how long I will last with that attitude today without being belted round the chops ?

[boxtops]

NJ - what you describe is certainly the case in some (perhaps less enlightened?) households, but here in the UK many of the Muslim women I know are nothing like that at all. They run their households, they are in charge "indoors", they work outside and run successful outwards-facing businesses. I am in no way denying what you say, but don't tar everyone with the same brush - it's not the case.

[Svejk]

are you saying I can beat my wife up because people did it years ago. what point are you trying to make? Seems to be if the same thing happened here in the past its ok now.
Fyi, I didn't have a stag night, I'm not married and you know nothing about me. So if I was you, I'd give up betting cos you're no good at it.

[Quizmonster]

Of course I don't think it's OK for you to beat your wife (thought you didn't have one!) Svejk, any more than I think it's OK for you to organise bear-baiting in your local pub's car-park! Had you cared actually to read the answer of mine you responded to above, you'd have seen that it actually included the words (quote) "traditions change".
So, you're not married...ne'er mind, eh?...one day you might be. Rather irrational of you to assume that responding only to the couple of ideas I raised re marriage somehow vitiates my views in their entirety.
As regards the other traditions we stick to, I'm sure even you could find multitudes that YOU also respect. There really are too many for me to bother with.
Concerning my "betting", you are as ignorant of that as you claim I am of you. Indeed, all-in-all, I'm rather glad I don't know you!

[anotheoldgit]

Why is it when the word Muslim or Islam is mentioned on this site, out come all the defenders, supporters and apologists?

Yet if this had been directed at Christians, there would have been a rush with comments such as what do you expect from people who are prepared to believe in fairy tales from a fairy story book etc, etc.

[boxtops]

Really, AOG? The tone of this thread mostly seems to agree that the Islamic countries are a century behind the west is terms of women's rights, etc., which is not a new thought, people have said that for a long time. I don't read anyone defending it.

[New Judge]

"I don't read anyone defending it."

Well, boxtops, this is what you, yourself, said:

"They may not have any photos of the females without head covering and that wouldn't be permitted to be shown in the media."

If a group of males of any other persuasion suggested that their women may not be photographed without head covering and that images of them would not be permitted to be published, how well do you think that would go down? Suppose a group of English males of no religion simply said "I'm not having our women photographed without their heads covered and I'm certainly not allowing their photos to be published " how might that be received? I think I can tell you. The "sisterhood" would be (quite rightly) appalled - as would I. They would say "How dare these blokes tell us how to conduct our affairs. How dare they tell us how to dress and what to do". This is the way of the world in the UK today, Women are not, generally, oppressed by men. There may be the odd instance, but generally women are treated equally. They do not need men's approval to have their photographs taken.

"...that women generally through all societies are or were until very recently discouraged from attending funeral rites."

I think, kvaladir, that if you conducted a survey, the percentage of Muslim women "discouraged" from attending funerals is disproportionately high compared to the population as a whole.

Sorry, but Muslim women generally (not all of them, but most of them) are treated appallingly by their men in the name of "tradition". They may think they are being treated well but that's because they know no different (mainly because their men will not allow them to find out). Yes, other cultures follow equally unacceptable practices so my rant is not exclusively aimed at Muslims. But they certainly seem to be the most prevalent. The problem in the UK is that so much score has been set to allow people to follow their tradition that we have lost sight of what is and is not acceptable. And it's a disgrace.