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Oh God...its Really Got Serious Now...israeli Boots On The Ground In Gaza
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Thank you naomi, for clarifying my motivation. Although it is you that only views things through the prism of "religion". I note that I did not relate in any of my posts any sort of religious views, but, apparently that's not sufficient in your view.
You mention 'integrating' with their neighbors... and you don't find it strange that it's not he Israelis that have, as a foundation, total annihilation of the opposing country? The Arab population of Israel is now at about 24%... I find that pretty amazing, integration wise. don't you?
Dr. Flith states Britain abstained from the vote on the Balfour Declaration.... simply stated, what have you been drinking? After aigning the Declaration in 1917, the House of Lords objected by 60/29 to reject the mandate over Palestine, but... but that vote was ignored by the British Government and the Mandate was fully accepted (Source: Quigley 2005).
Further to naomi's objection, the only truly religious zeal in Israel today can be called the "religion of security". It's a well known fact that Israel is primarily a secular nation today with only a fraction of its population still actively [Zionist[i] in nature. Many of the secularists do observe certain holidays but it's only the ultra-Orthodox one sees (even here in the U.S.) in the long black coats and black hats who insist on Biblical Jewish customs being the norm.
Wharton refers to "thousands" objecting to National service when that's not true either. There is and always has been objection from the ultra-Orthodox at being drafted into service and, up to now they have been expempted, creating more tensions between them and the at-large Secularists... so much so that special considerations have been granted to objectors, incuding a large number of women and the numbers of both have increased.
Additionally, although the Arab Israeli's are exmpted from service in the IDF, many volunteer for duties other than combat.
Again, naomi cites opinions on the "sad" nature of Israel without benefit of example... here's one though: "Israel ranked 14th in the United Nations’ first World Happiness Report. The list is headed by Denmark, Finland, Norway and the Netherlands, the paradises of political correctness, welfare, anti-war, ultra-liberal and anti-nationalistic feelings, beacons which, according to the Global Peace Index, topped the list of the most “peaceful” places in the world." (Source: OCED Better Life Index). (America is ranked 17th, the UK 22th)( Seen here: http://
Finally, it appears the stuey is suggesting that Great Britain (for hom I hold enormous respect) has never been involved in genocide... if so, why am I, an
American the only one so far, to call him on that historical error of huge proportions?
Read here for one reference: http://
In the past few years there have been five Israeli Nobel Prize winners.
You mention 'integrating' with their neighbors... and you don't find it strange that it's not he Israelis that have, as a foundation, total annihilation of the opposing country? The Arab population of Israel is now at about 24%... I find that pretty amazing, integration wise. don't you?
Dr. Flith states Britain abstained from the vote on the Balfour Declaration.... simply stated, what have you been drinking? After aigning the Declaration in 1917, the House of Lords objected by 60/29 to reject the mandate over Palestine, but... but that vote was ignored by the British Government and the Mandate was fully accepted (Source: Quigley 2005).
Further to naomi's objection, the only truly religious zeal in Israel today can be called the "religion of security". It's a well known fact that Israel is primarily a secular nation today with only a fraction of its population still actively [Zionist[i] in nature. Many of the secularists do observe certain holidays but it's only the ultra-Orthodox one sees (even here in the U.S.) in the long black coats and black hats who insist on Biblical Jewish customs being the norm.
Wharton refers to "thousands" objecting to National service when that's not true either. There is and always has been objection from the ultra-Orthodox at being drafted into service and, up to now they have been expempted, creating more tensions between them and the at-large Secularists... so much so that special considerations have been granted to objectors, incuding a large number of women and the numbers of both have increased.
Additionally, although the Arab Israeli's are exmpted from service in the IDF, many volunteer for duties other than combat.
Again, naomi cites opinions on the "sad" nature of Israel without benefit of example... here's one though: "Israel ranked 14th in the United Nations’ first World Happiness Report. The list is headed by Denmark, Finland, Norway and the Netherlands, the paradises of political correctness, welfare, anti-war, ultra-liberal and anti-nationalistic feelings, beacons which, according to the Global Peace Index, topped the list of the most “peaceful” places in the world." (Source: OCED Better Life Index). (America is ranked 17th, the UK 22th)( Seen here: http://
Finally, it appears the stuey is suggesting that Great Britain (for hom I hold enormous respect) has never been involved in genocide... if so, why am I, an
American the only one so far, to call him on that historical error of huge proportions?
Read here for one reference: http://
In the past few years there have been five Israeli Nobel Prize winners.
Clanad, if you’re not viewing this through the prism of religion, what is your ethical motivation for supporting the injustice the Palestinians have been subjected to?
//You mention 'integrating' with their neighbors... and you don't find it strange that it's not he Israelis that have, as a foundation, total annihilation of the opposing country?//
Crikey, Clanad! I know you said your neighbours live a long way from you, but how far are you talking?
//The Arab population of Israel is now at about 24%... I find that pretty amazing, integration wise. don't you? //
No, I don’t, but perhaps you think that maintaining checkpoints manned by armed soldiers and building barriers to keep people apart encourages integration? Let’s just say that the Arabs and the Israelis don’t generally party together on a regular basis.
//Many of the secularists do observe certain holidays but it's only the ultra-Orthodox one sees (even here in the U.S.) in the long black coats and black hats who insist on Biblical Jewish customs being the norm..//
And you know this how? You’ve clearly never stayed at an Israeli hotel on the Sabbath where it’s not uncommon for guests to be left to make their own beds, use yesterday's bath towels, and eat from cold buffets prepared the day before.
//although the Arab Israeli's are exmpted from service in the IDF, many volunteer for duties other than combat.//
That^ is misleading. Christian Arabs have been invited to join the IDF. Sunni Muslims, as far as I am aware, have not.
//Again, naomi cites opinions on the "sad" nature of Israel without benefit of example... here's one though: "Israel ranked 14th in the United Nations’ first World Happiness Report.//
Who do you think the organisers polled, Clanad? For very obvious reasons the Israelis are very happy to be living in Israel, but in my experience as a foreigner, a non-Jew, and an independent observer, Israel is a sad place.
And speaking of the benefit of example I can’t see any reference to the source of the grossly inaccurate information you’ve posted here. I can only assume that, as an American, you’ve been watching too much biased television reporting.
//You mention 'integrating' with their neighbors... and you don't find it strange that it's not he Israelis that have, as a foundation, total annihilation of the opposing country?//
Crikey, Clanad! I know you said your neighbours live a long way from you, but how far are you talking?
//The Arab population of Israel is now at about 24%... I find that pretty amazing, integration wise. don't you? //
No, I don’t, but perhaps you think that maintaining checkpoints manned by armed soldiers and building barriers to keep people apart encourages integration? Let’s just say that the Arabs and the Israelis don’t generally party together on a regular basis.
//Many of the secularists do observe certain holidays but it's only the ultra-Orthodox one sees (even here in the U.S.) in the long black coats and black hats who insist on Biblical Jewish customs being the norm..//
And you know this how? You’ve clearly never stayed at an Israeli hotel on the Sabbath where it’s not uncommon for guests to be left to make their own beds, use yesterday's bath towels, and eat from cold buffets prepared the day before.
//although the Arab Israeli's are exmpted from service in the IDF, many volunteer for duties other than combat.//
That^ is misleading. Christian Arabs have been invited to join the IDF. Sunni Muslims, as far as I am aware, have not.
//Again, naomi cites opinions on the "sad" nature of Israel without benefit of example... here's one though: "Israel ranked 14th in the United Nations’ first World Happiness Report.//
Who do you think the organisers polled, Clanad? For very obvious reasons the Israelis are very happy to be living in Israel, but in my experience as a foreigner, a non-Jew, and an independent observer, Israel is a sad place.
And speaking of the benefit of example I can’t see any reference to the source of the grossly inaccurate information you’ve posted here. I can only assume that, as an American, you’ve been watching too much biased television reporting.
Gee, naomi, I count three (3) references... but then I'm sure they must have dropped out of your copy.
My ethical motivation is rooted in history (sans religion) mainly: One site says it better than I can "...Anti-Semitism is unique amongst the hatreds in the world in a combination of four aspects: 1) Longevity -- it's been around a long time 2) Universality -- virtually everywhere in the world 3) Intensity -- it's expressed in a particularly virulent manner 4) Confusion -- there is surprisingly little agreement on why people hate the Jews.
Historians offer many "reasons" to explain why people are anti-Semitic: Jews are too powerful or too lazy; too separate or a threat to "racial purity" through assimilation; pacifistic or warmongers; capitalist exploiters or revolutionary communists; the "killers" of Jesus or the progenitors of Jesus; possessors of a Chosen People mentality or an inferiority complex. These reasons have one thing in common -- they have nothing to do with their being Jewish..." Easily seen here:
http://
I know... I know... your first response will be "But that comes from a Jewish source"... so what, it doesn't make it any less true, does it?
"A few years ago, Israel gave Palistinians over 3,000 greenhouses in an effort at outreach... this after removing all vestiges of Jewsih settlement on the Gaza border. "...The Palestinians intensified their rocket and terrorsist attacks on Israel and destroyed the greenhouses. Hamas’s attacks are incited by the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, Syria, and others opposed to the very concept of the nation state for the Jewish people. The best proof of this reality is that these attacks began as soon as Israel ended its occupation of Gaza and uprooted all the civilian settlements from that area." (Source: Cyprus Mail, July 14, 2014).
"Israel left behind agricultural hothouses and other equipment that the residents of Gaza could have used to build a decent society. Moreover, there was no siege of Gaza at that time. Gaza was free to become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.
Instead, Hamas engaged in a coup d’état, murdering many members of the Palestinian Authority and seizing control of all of Gaza, turning it into a militant theocracy. They used the material left behind by the Israelis not to feed their citizens, but to build rockets with which to attack Israeli civilians.
It was only after these rocket attacks that Israel began a siege of Gaza designed to prevent the importation of rockets and materials used to build “terror tunnels” for kidnapping missions." (Source: op. cit. )
Yet, as before the pullout, Israel continues to supply gas, fuel, electricity ad water to the Gaza population.
"Palpable air of suspicion and mistrust..." you bet there is... but the better question is why? If you and your family lived under the threat of violent death every hour of every day, I imagine you'd be suspicious and wary as well.
This is a one way street and your badly misinformed about which way that street runs...
My ethical motivation is rooted in history (sans religion) mainly: One site says it better than I can "...Anti-Semitism is unique amongst the hatreds in the world in a combination of four aspects: 1) Longevity -- it's been around a long time 2) Universality -- virtually everywhere in the world 3) Intensity -- it's expressed in a particularly virulent manner 4) Confusion -- there is surprisingly little agreement on why people hate the Jews.
Historians offer many "reasons" to explain why people are anti-Semitic: Jews are too powerful or too lazy; too separate or a threat to "racial purity" through assimilation; pacifistic or warmongers; capitalist exploiters or revolutionary communists; the "killers" of Jesus or the progenitors of Jesus; possessors of a Chosen People mentality or an inferiority complex. These reasons have one thing in common -- they have nothing to do with their being Jewish..." Easily seen here:
http://
I know... I know... your first response will be "But that comes from a Jewish source"... so what, it doesn't make it any less true, does it?
"A few years ago, Israel gave Palistinians over 3,000 greenhouses in an effort at outreach... this after removing all vestiges of Jewsih settlement on the Gaza border. "...The Palestinians intensified their rocket and terrorsist attacks on Israel and destroyed the greenhouses. Hamas’s attacks are incited by the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, Syria, and others opposed to the very concept of the nation state for the Jewish people. The best proof of this reality is that these attacks began as soon as Israel ended its occupation of Gaza and uprooted all the civilian settlements from that area." (Source: Cyprus Mail, July 14, 2014).
"Israel left behind agricultural hothouses and other equipment that the residents of Gaza could have used to build a decent society. Moreover, there was no siege of Gaza at that time. Gaza was free to become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.
Instead, Hamas engaged in a coup d’état, murdering many members of the Palestinian Authority and seizing control of all of Gaza, turning it into a militant theocracy. They used the material left behind by the Israelis not to feed their citizens, but to build rockets with which to attack Israeli civilians.
It was only after these rocket attacks that Israel began a siege of Gaza designed to prevent the importation of rockets and materials used to build “terror tunnels” for kidnapping missions." (Source: op. cit. )
Yet, as before the pullout, Israel continues to supply gas, fuel, electricity ad water to the Gaza population.
"Palpable air of suspicion and mistrust..." you bet there is... but the better question is why? If you and your family lived under the threat of violent death every hour of every day, I imagine you'd be suspicious and wary as well.
This is a one way street and your badly misinformed about which way that street runs...
Clanad, I can see a source relating to the Balfour Declaration, and two links, one to a Happiness Report on Wiki, the other to an article on genocide, but none of those explain how you conclude that the Arab population of Israel is well-integrated with its Jewish neighbours, that the observance of Jewish holidays is in the main ignored except by the ultra-religious, or that Arab Muslims are recruited to the IDF. None of that is true.
//I know... I know... your first response will be "But that comes from a Jewish source"... so what, it doesn't make it any less true, does it?//
No, that wasn’t going to be my first response. My first response is one of unsurprised confirmation that your chosen riposte would be to resort to the age old defence of anti-Semitism. Whilst it’s true that anti-Semitism exists and is morally wrong, it’s also true that forcibly removing people from their homes and from their land in favour of newly-arriving migrants is morally wrong. On principle, anti-Semitism – historical or not - is no justification.
//This is a one way street and your badly misinformed about which way that street runs...//
The difference between your views and mine is that I have not relied upon someone else to inform me. I’ve walked the street.
//I know... I know... your first response will be "But that comes from a Jewish source"... so what, it doesn't make it any less true, does it?//
No, that wasn’t going to be my first response. My first response is one of unsurprised confirmation that your chosen riposte would be to resort to the age old defence of anti-Semitism. Whilst it’s true that anti-Semitism exists and is morally wrong, it’s also true that forcibly removing people from their homes and from their land in favour of newly-arriving migrants is morally wrong. On principle, anti-Semitism – historical or not - is no justification.
//This is a one way street and your badly misinformed about which way that street runs...//
The difference between your views and mine is that I have not relied upon someone else to inform me. I’ve walked the street.
> Dr. Flith states Britain abstained from the vote on the
Balfour Declaration.... simply stated, what have you been drinking? <
from a jewish site
> The Mandate stated that a "Jewish national home" would be established. The Jewish and Arab communities were allowed to run their own internal affairs, and Jewish life flourished in Israel.
However, in 1939, under pressure from the Arab community, Great Britain issued a White Paper, essentially reneging on the original declaration, and stating that a Jewish homeland was no longer a priority <
league of nations Balfour Declaration vote
In favour: 33
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.
Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.
Abstained: 10
United Kingdom, Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, Yugoslavia.
what have you been drinking i am having another nice cup of tea
Balfour Declaration.... simply stated, what have you been drinking? <
from a jewish site
> The Mandate stated that a "Jewish national home" would be established. The Jewish and Arab communities were allowed to run their own internal affairs, and Jewish life flourished in Israel.
However, in 1939, under pressure from the Arab community, Great Britain issued a White Paper, essentially reneging on the original declaration, and stating that a Jewish homeland was no longer a priority <
league of nations Balfour Declaration vote
In favour: 33
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.
Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.
Abstained: 10
United Kingdom, Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, Yugoslavia.
what have you been drinking i am having another nice cup of tea
Your response indicates no one but yourself, naomi can have a valid opinion on the situation in the Middle East. You imply you've 'walked the street"... are you Jewish or Arab? You seem to feel that no one can be informed, unless the source of information meets some unknown standard which you alone judge...
However, Dr. Filth... the original Declaration was approved in 1917, no? Doesn't matter what happened much later under different political circumstances... the original Declaration was entilrely British and sustained as such.
However, Dr. Filth... the original Declaration was approved in 1917, no? Doesn't matter what happened much later under different political circumstances... the original Declaration was entilrely British and sustained as such.
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