Why Is Russia And Putin In Particular Being Held Responsible For This Horrible Crime.

[anotheoldgit]

The headlines being banded about by the Western media such as

"Russians did it! Putin's rebels BLEW UP MH17 plane"

"Is this the moment Russians prepared to fire a missile at flight MH17?"

"Time to confess, Putin"

"Pro-Russian looters"

"Armed Russian rebels"

"'This baby's death is on your conscience, Putin"

"Russian gangsters killed our loved ones"

"Britain and America implicate Russia in Flight MH17 missile attack"

If it was indeed the UKRAINE rebels who committed this crime, (and nothing has so far been proven) how can Putin or his Russian people be held responsible for the actions of a few madmen?

If it is proven that it was the Ukrainians themselves who are responsible, will we ever be told, and if we are, this would be a huge egg in the faces of the Western politicians and our media.

And this is in no way an anti British rant, or even pro-Russian, it is simply a relevant question.

[royfromaus]

Gromit
It looks like this was the work of the Ukrainian army.

18:13 Thu 17th Jul 2014

Gromit
The conflict in Ukraine was due to the EU courting the country.

12:05 Sat 19th Jul 2014



No, nothing to do with that nice Mr. Putin.

[Hypognosis]

On Beeb rolling news, last night, presenter was interviewing someone, looked at her notes and said how Asiana and Korean Airlines flights were on the same corridor, just minutes ahead/behind MH17. But the discussion was about how other airlines had been avoiding the area for -months-.

[anotheoldgit]

THECORBYLOON

If you ask a specific question such as;

/// Is there another use for missiles? ///

Expect a specific answer.

[ichkeria]

And on the subject of the EU, can you blame the Ukrainians for wanting it in preference to Putin's Eurasian version? You can take back your straight banana, the Eurasian trade organisation recently effectively banned the sale of women's lace underwear lol.

[THECORBYLOON]

To keep you happy ANOTHEOLDGIT, with regard to the type of missile used to blow up the plane, does the missile have another use other than to blow up airborne targets?

[Gromit]

Royfromaus
// It looks like this was the work of the Ukrainian army. //

That was based on the information at the time. The only weapon that could have brought down a plane at 33,000 feet was a BUK launcher, which the Ukrainian Army use. Subsequently we have learned that the Rebels captured a BUK a couple of weeks ago.

// The conflict in Ukraine was due to the EU courting the country. //

Yep.

[ichkeria]

Information also available at the time showed the plane was coming from the direction of Ukraine not from the direction of Russia. In addition to which there are no Russian-backed combat aircraft involved in the war and never have been. So the idea that it was the work of the Ukrainian military was always fanciful.
What is puzzling is that TV footage showed men in the uniform of the Ukrainian Ministry of Emergencies searching for bodies. Odd if this was an area controlled by terrorists. Not a wise choice of dress for anyone in an area patrolled by drunken Russian mercenaries.

[Hypognosis]

btw, can I read into comments above that EU reluctant to trade with CIS but happy to trade with Ukraine, whilst Ukraine happy to trade with both, making it a conduit and able to cream off some revenue for itself?

Then again, wasn't Russia furious at Ukraine for selling gas supplied by them into the Europe at a mark-up?
(I can't think of anything Russian-made that Europeans would want aside from gas and farm produce).

[ichkeria]

" Then again, wasn't Russia furious at Ukraine for selling gas supplied by them into the Europe at a mark-up?
(I can't think of anything Russian-made that Europeans would want aside from gas and farm produce). "

The way it works between Russia and Ukraine and gas is: the price Russia charges Ukraine for its gas is inversely proportionate to the amount of influence it thinks it can wield over Ukraine's affairs. There really is no more to it than that.

[royfromaus]

Gromit
That was based on the information at the time.


As ichkeria has said, there was lots of information. I couln't understand your reasoning at the time, it was as if you just didn't want it to be the Pro-Russian separatist.

[ichkeria]

I had a very reliable Russian-made fridge one :-)
Russian products have a reputation for being dull, but functional and durable.
The major Russian product that Europe loves, and Britain especially, is all that lovely illegally acquired it sends over money for laundering, or saving/investing. It appears to prop up the City to a large extent although I have no knowledge of or interest in such matters

[Hypognosis]

Yes, a factoid which emerged from the immigration shouting match was that a lot of these multi-million pound London houses were being snapped up by Rus oligarchs. Thus they are directly distorting our housing market and making life difficult for everyone, due to the 'ripple effect' that London valuations have on surrounding areas.

As for the stock market, they might be able to sink their claws into another privatisation, in the not-too distant future…

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Business-and-Finance/Question1351780.html

[Gromit]

// I couln't understand your reasoning at the time, it was as if you just didn't want it to be the Pro-Russian separatist. //

My reasoning at the time was that only one side had the BUK launcher, and that was the Government side. Though it had been Tweeted on 29th June that the Rebels had captured a launcher, I was not aware of that when I was trying to assess who had fired it. Added to that, an Associated Press report placing a Government BUK in the vicinity recently, led to my calling thew wrong side.

When I heard the recording of the Rebel troops late last night, I was convinced the rebels had shot the airliner down.

[ivor4781]

we, uk /usa , supplied most of the weapons and chemicals to Hussain to kill the kurds .there's a lot of hypocrisy here, many other examples too, (south America iran etc)

[ichkeria]

The rebels hadn't captured a launcher though. Or if they had, it wasn't the one used in the attack. This is why it's such a smoking gun for Putin.
There are further transcripts from the SBU in which terrorists discuss with Russian military officials the delivery of the missiles.

[Khandro]

//There are further transcripts from the SBU// Do you have a link for that please?

[ichkeria]

There you go:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-releases-more-conversations-implicating-russia-in-shooting-down-malaysia-airlines-flight-video-transcript-2-356778.html

The actual video is worth listening to, if only to dispel ideas it might be a fake
But it's Russian language only - otherwise follow the translation below

[keyplus90]

CIA.............no one else.

[ChillDoubt]

At present, the pro-Russian rebels say they will guarantee the safety of monitors at site if the Ukraine government agree to a truce.
It's sickening that they're using such a tragedy of their own making to continue their political manouevring.

As for the OP and its title I'm amazed it has garnered as many repsonses as it has, considering that it's obvious to all and sundry that Putin encouraged the initial conflict, backed the rebels and patently armed them to their current ability, ergo he has a fair amount of control and influence.
His virtual silence since the tragic event speaks volumes and is to his detriment, though he undoubtedly cares not a jot.

[ichkeria]

Chilldoubt, as someone who naturally has a close interest in Ukraine and in this event I am glad people want to discuss it here. Unfortunately there will always be conspiracy theorists (though with the possible exception of the comment above your last one I am not talking about people on this thread) and those who work to their own agendas, but yes knowing Russia well and how it works you are absolutely right in your assessment. I am a bit disappointed in BBC media coverage of this: they have steered clear of interviewing many if any Ukrainian representatives (probably in the interests of "neutrality") and in fact last night chose to interview a Spanish lecturer from a London college whose "neutrality" on this issue I would seriously question. All very frustrating.