Lord Peter Mandelson, Uk Ambassador
News2 mins ago
Selfish Suicide With Bells On
Suicide is a selfish cowards way out, and this guy certainly made sure the woman who left him didn't forget him
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@andy
On the balance of probabilities, it was a premeditated act.
I take your point about the main focus, however, it would seem from a debaters aspect, understanding the motivation of the guy seems to be of similar importance and invariably this throws up emotive language.
One hopes that those directly affected have access to the care and services available to help deal with their situation.
That is something we should all be able to agree with....
On the balance of probabilities, it was a premeditated act.
I take your point about the main focus, however, it would seem from a debaters aspect, understanding the motivation of the guy seems to be of similar importance and invariably this throws up emotive language.
One hopes that those directly affected have access to the care and services available to help deal with their situation.
That is something we should all be able to agree with....
-- answer removed --
AH.......'You have yet to respond to my point about your considerable anger about this situation. My posts are necessarily dispassionate since I have no knowledge of the people involved - yours however are seriously angry - why?'
Because his selfish action has deliberately ruined his ex-girlfriends life......and left his son fatherless
Just because someone leaves you isn't a reason to end your life - if it was there'd be thousands of suicides every year
Suicide should only be if an individual has nothing left to live for - this coward had plenty to live for, his son for starters
Because his selfish action has deliberately ruined his ex-girlfriends life......and left his son fatherless
Just because someone leaves you isn't a reason to end your life - if it was there'd be thousands of suicides every year
Suicide should only be if an individual has nothing left to live for - this coward had plenty to live for, his son for starters
divebuddy - "You are, of course, entitled to have any opinion you want, but you shouldn't try to bolster it with claims of superior knowledge if such a claim is at best dubious. Thank you for accepting that point."
I have never claimed to have 'superior knowlege'. To do so would indeed be dubious - which is why I haven't and wouldn't do it.
All I have done is outlined my background to my views on suicide based on my personal experience.
At no point have in inferred, much less stated, that this makes me any kind of 'expert', or that my opinion and experience are any more or less valid than anyone else'.
We are all a product of our experience, mine is possibly more direct than some posters on here, and again, it may well be less than others.
I have never tried to dress it up as anything more than it is - my experience, which obviously directly affects my perception of the events under discussion, and I have entered into a debate with any and all who have joined in here.
So by all means disagree with me, argue, and take an entirely contrary view - but please don't accuse me of passing myself off as an 'expert' - I'm not, and I have not done so.
I have never claimed to have 'superior knowlege'. To do so would indeed be dubious - which is why I haven't and wouldn't do it.
All I have done is outlined my background to my views on suicide based on my personal experience.
At no point have in inferred, much less stated, that this makes me any kind of 'expert', or that my opinion and experience are any more or less valid than anyone else'.
We are all a product of our experience, mine is possibly more direct than some posters on here, and again, it may well be less than others.
I have never tried to dress it up as anything more than it is - my experience, which obviously directly affects my perception of the events under discussion, and I have entered into a debate with any and all who have joined in here.
So by all means disagree with me, argue, and take an entirely contrary view - but please don't accuse me of passing myself off as an 'expert' - I'm not, and I have not done so.
joeluke - thank you for responding to my request for an expansion on your viewpoint.
"Just because someone leaves you isn't a reason to end your life - if it was there'd be thousands of suicides every year"
No argument there with your point, or your conclusion.
"Suicide should only be if an individual has nothing left to live for - this coward had plenty to live for, his son for starters"
This is where our views part company.
I would entirely agree that this man had lots to live for, including obviously and most importantly his son.
But the cornerstone of Depression is its ability to distort feelings and emotions, to the point where perception is entirely the opposite of reality.
Every person with Depression has things to live for, and the potential for treatment. That is the reality for a rational mind.
But every person with Depression also has the potential to lose that reality completely, to believe that they are never going to get past this endless feeling of deep dark oblivion, that life is never going to change, that this unbearable pain is never ever going to go away. A major part of Depression is a level of self-hatred that is beyond most people's comprehension. Coupled with that self-hatred is a feeling of utter worthlessness, and a strong belief that the world, and everyone in it, would be better off if the sufferer was no longer around. Perversely, the Depressive thinks he is doing the right thing by his or her loved ones by leaving them, because he or she seriously believes they will be better off that way, with the Depressive gone and no longer a burden.
And that is where suicide comes from.
You and I, and almost everyone else. as people with a sense of rationality can know that treatment, and help and support are there for sufferers.
But if the sufferer themselves cannot see that support, cannot react to that help, cannot understand that death is not the answer, then for them, it is as if it is not there.
And that is when the urge to die really takes over, and can result in a suicide.
The futility of a suicidal death is a dreadful thing to feel, but I believe it must be tempered with some compassion that the poor individual really felt themselves to be beyond reach, beyond help, and beyond living.
"Just because someone leaves you isn't a reason to end your life - if it was there'd be thousands of suicides every year"
No argument there with your point, or your conclusion.
"Suicide should only be if an individual has nothing left to live for - this coward had plenty to live for, his son for starters"
This is where our views part company.
I would entirely agree that this man had lots to live for, including obviously and most importantly his son.
But the cornerstone of Depression is its ability to distort feelings and emotions, to the point where perception is entirely the opposite of reality.
Every person with Depression has things to live for, and the potential for treatment. That is the reality for a rational mind.
But every person with Depression also has the potential to lose that reality completely, to believe that they are never going to get past this endless feeling of deep dark oblivion, that life is never going to change, that this unbearable pain is never ever going to go away. A major part of Depression is a level of self-hatred that is beyond most people's comprehension. Coupled with that self-hatred is a feeling of utter worthlessness, and a strong belief that the world, and everyone in it, would be better off if the sufferer was no longer around. Perversely, the Depressive thinks he is doing the right thing by his or her loved ones by leaving them, because he or she seriously believes they will be better off that way, with the Depressive gone and no longer a burden.
And that is where suicide comes from.
You and I, and almost everyone else. as people with a sense of rationality can know that treatment, and help and support are there for sufferers.
But if the sufferer themselves cannot see that support, cannot react to that help, cannot understand that death is not the answer, then for them, it is as if it is not there.
And that is when the urge to die really takes over, and can result in a suicide.
The futility of a suicidal death is a dreadful thing to feel, but I believe it must be tempered with some compassion that the poor individual really felt themselves to be beyond reach, beyond help, and beyond living.
DaisyNonna - I have pointed out that I believe that compassion is deserved for everyone in this whole tragic situation.
This man's poor ex-girlfriend, aside from the trauma of seeing him die under a train she was driving, will always wonder if she could have done something to prevent it from happening - and that is a tragedy that will go on and on.
This man's poor ex-girlfriend, aside from the trauma of seeing him die under a train she was driving, will always wonder if she could have done something to prevent it from happening - and that is a tragedy that will go on and on.
-- answer removed --
divebuddy - "A-H, I am sorry, but I still believe you painted yourself as someone who knows all about suicide and that your view was the only sensible one. you were adamant that this guy did not perform his particularly cruel act with pre-meditation."
Your view is a matter of perception - not one it seems that is shared by anyone else with the possible exception of joeluke, but it is your view, and I respect it, and agree to differ.
"I suppose you convinced yourself of this because as you put it, "I do understand exactly how he felt". which, of course, you don't."
On reflection, that observation was inaccurate, and I am happy to withdraw it.
" Only later did you back track and say things like "I am speculating" and "I have no way of knowing the truth"."
A fair point, but that is the essence of debate isn't it?
If no-one's views were ever changed, or even altered slightly as a result of someone else's point of view, then debate would cease to exist, it would be pointless.
I am perfectly willing to concede that after reading another point I have amended my own view, or even changed it completely.
"I don't expect you'll accept what I say as accurate, but to me that is the way you came across. your lengthy posts didn't convince people, so you backed off from your previous position."
As you will see, I do agree that some of what you say is entirely accurate.
I am not trying to convince anyone with my lengthy posts - and my lack of 'convincing' is not the reason why I amended (rather than backed off from) my previous position.
I post the way I have always posted since I started on the AB - I read the OP, and every post afterwards, and then I start typing. I literally think as I type, and that can and does mean that frequently I place my views in careless ways, sometimes my sentences do not convey what I intend, sometimes I make rash observations, which need correction, or retraction.
But that is the way written debate works. People present themselves in the way they believe to be accurate and truthful. By the time someone else reads what they have said, their meaning may have been misunderstood, or even utterly disagreed with - which is absolutely fine - I never have any problem backing down if I believe I am wrong, or apologising if I have inadvertently upset someone.
But I honestly would not be happy posting in any other way but my stream of consciousness, and I accept that on occasions (and this is yet another!), I am particularly verbose when I get carried away.
"I don't suppose you'll want me to have the last word.so if you respond to this post I'll probably let it go."
I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else having the last word - I am simply responding to you, and to anyone else, as I have done since I started on here.
My views and opinions are my own - I do not hold myself up as an 'expert' on anything, but I do consider myself to have experiences that are deeper than other people's and this thread has been one, hence my massive contribution.
I have very much enjoyed exchanging opinions and viewpoints with you and everyone else.
If I have appeared 'superior' and pompous, it has honestly not been my intention. In terms of the experiences I have drawn on for my posts, I would give anything in the world not to have had them, but I have, and the make me part of who I am.
So, we will move on and meet on another thread I am sure.
Good night all.
Your view is a matter of perception - not one it seems that is shared by anyone else with the possible exception of joeluke, but it is your view, and I respect it, and agree to differ.
"I suppose you convinced yourself of this because as you put it, "I do understand exactly how he felt". which, of course, you don't."
On reflection, that observation was inaccurate, and I am happy to withdraw it.
" Only later did you back track and say things like "I am speculating" and "I have no way of knowing the truth"."
A fair point, but that is the essence of debate isn't it?
If no-one's views were ever changed, or even altered slightly as a result of someone else's point of view, then debate would cease to exist, it would be pointless.
I am perfectly willing to concede that after reading another point I have amended my own view, or even changed it completely.
"I don't expect you'll accept what I say as accurate, but to me that is the way you came across. your lengthy posts didn't convince people, so you backed off from your previous position."
As you will see, I do agree that some of what you say is entirely accurate.
I am not trying to convince anyone with my lengthy posts - and my lack of 'convincing' is not the reason why I amended (rather than backed off from) my previous position.
I post the way I have always posted since I started on the AB - I read the OP, and every post afterwards, and then I start typing. I literally think as I type, and that can and does mean that frequently I place my views in careless ways, sometimes my sentences do not convey what I intend, sometimes I make rash observations, which need correction, or retraction.
But that is the way written debate works. People present themselves in the way they believe to be accurate and truthful. By the time someone else reads what they have said, their meaning may have been misunderstood, or even utterly disagreed with - which is absolutely fine - I never have any problem backing down if I believe I am wrong, or apologising if I have inadvertently upset someone.
But I honestly would not be happy posting in any other way but my stream of consciousness, and I accept that on occasions (and this is yet another!), I am particularly verbose when I get carried away.
"I don't suppose you'll want me to have the last word.so if you respond to this post I'll probably let it go."
I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else having the last word - I am simply responding to you, and to anyone else, as I have done since I started on here.
My views and opinions are my own - I do not hold myself up as an 'expert' on anything, but I do consider myself to have experiences that are deeper than other people's and this thread has been one, hence my massive contribution.
I have very much enjoyed exchanging opinions and viewpoints with you and everyone else.
If I have appeared 'superior' and pompous, it has honestly not been my intention. In terms of the experiences I have drawn on for my posts, I would give anything in the world not to have had them, but I have, and the make me part of who I am.
So, we will move on and meet on another thread I am sure.
Good night all.
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