Ched Evans, Is He A Victim Here, Too?

[sandyRoe]

I wouldn't have thought so, but others seem to think differently.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30093565

[2sp_]

divebuddy, no it isn't right. The brother should have got longer because of the violence.

That's my point. Rape itself should have a set sentence. Additional months/years should be added due to the levels of violence involved.

[gness]

Some attacks are worse than others.....it's not difficult to understand that rape and attack are separate.

[2sp_]

What I'm trying to say is that some people seem to think that you need to be violently assaulted AND raped for it to actually be rape.

No one rape is worse than others. The violence can vary grately, and that's what makes one case more severe than another. Not the act of rape.

[2sp_]

divebuddy - At least one person does seem to think that violence has to be involved for it to be rape. And I know I've seen similar comments on this site since the Evans case.

Zeuhl @ 14.23 -

/Hence, rape is rape./

That is naive and dishonest

'Rape' in common understanding implies an element of physical force and probably violence

If you want to separate out the violence then perhaps the term 'rape' should be replaced with 'non consensual sex'?

[Zeuhl]

/some people seem to think that you need to be violently assaulted AND raped for it to actually be rape./

2sp

if you are happy for there to be no apparent distinction between cases that do involve violence and those that don't - fine

personally i think it is unhelpful from all angles

including gness's because if there is an assumption that rape involves one person forcing themselves on another then the Ched Evans case becomes for some people 'not a real rape'

Expecting the term rape to be qualified by instances of added violence is unrealistic as it will need a total redefinition of the word

/In the Soviet advance on Berlin Western estimates of the total number of rape victims range from tens of thousands to two million./

Were they taken to party at hotels and than when they fell unconscious the soldiers took no reply as consent and carried on? Or was some force and violence involved in some specific cases?

[Zeuhl]

/At least one person does seem to think that violence has to be involved for it to be rape./

If that is pointed at me you are mistaken or lying

[2sp_]

Well, I must be mistaken because I'm not lying about what you wrote.

[ummmm]

There are different reasons for rape.

Rape within a marriage. Jump out the bushes. Having sex with someone who is too drunk to consent.

Rape is often attributed to control....not for sexual satisfaction.

[Zeuhl]

/Well, I must be mistaken because I'm not lying about what you wrote./

Then cut and paste my post where i wrote that i /think that violence has to be involved for it to be rape./

while you're at it you might notice i posted the actual definition of rape in English Law so I hardly think my understanding of it is in question

[janbee]

He's a CONVICTED rapist so no, he's NOT a victim. He's brought all this on himself.

[mushroom25]

janbee, the point being made is that Paddy Hill and his associates were also convicted. convicted bombers. except that they were entirely innocent.

[ludwig]

// janbee, the point being made is that Paddy Hill and his associates were also convicted. convicted bombers. except that they were entirely innocent. //

They were originally convicted though, so they brought it all on themselves.

[Peter Pedant]

Ludo - the framing of the B'ham and Guildford non bombers is not really helpful - a) you cant consent to being blown up.... b) they hadnt done it in the sense they were in fact at home knitting or reading....

[DaisyNonna]

There is no denying that rape is a terrible crime.
He was convicted.
Even if he did not commit rape he is still guilty of having sexual relations with a woman when either or both were drunk. Not a role model for youngsters who admire and want to copy footballers.
Not a victim.

[mushroom25]

//They were originally convicted though, so they brought it all on themselves. //

actually they didn't. their arrest (and subsequent conviction) was politically motivated by the firestorm of public outrage that followed the bombings.

[Ellipsis]

While miscarriages of justice can and do occur, the prisons are full of people who proclaim their innocence and we have to work on the assumption that they are liars.

I haven't followed the Evans case that closely but AFAIK the facts are not particularly in doubt, are they? The victim was plastered, she went back to a hotel room and had sex with Evans and his mate, and when she sobered up she realised that she didn't want to have had sex with Evans. That made Evans' sex act rape in the opinion of the court. In the absence of any new evidence, there have to date been no allowed grounds to appeal and so he is a rapist.

[Jomlett]

Sheff Utd have retracted their offer to let Ched Evans use their training facilities.