Will She Be Staying In A Hotel With...
News6 mins ago
Fox Hunting & Cameron
http://
while foxes are over populating urban areas & farmland, I cant see a pack of hounds followed by 20+ mounted horses chasing one fox, to be an effective cull. Has the black spider been bending our PMs ear?
while foxes are over populating urban areas & farmland, I cant see a pack of hounds followed by 20+ mounted horses chasing one fox, to be an effective cull. Has the black spider been bending our PMs ear?
Answers
//If the farmer built his hen house properly, there would be no killing by foxes - and no need to hunt them for that reason.//
And no 'free range' eggs or chickens. Imagine the furore that would create on AB.
//It's primary function fails then - you know as well as I do that the hunt fails more than it succeeds. And if chasing animals and tearing them apart represents a 'fun day out', then perhaps country people need to find other things to do 'for fun' that don't involve sadism.//
I don't know that the hunt fails more than it succeeds and it is presumptuous of you to assume I do. Success rate varies from hunt to hunt depending on the nature of the country they hunt and the amount of foxes present. Also, had you ever been to a hunt you would know that it is the hounds that chase the fox not the 'followers'.
I'm not really sure why you reproduce the tables of fox mortality because the point you are attempting to disprove is solely concerned with the success rate of hunts not of hunting's relative success in the control of foxes. Where hunting is invaluable is in the service it provides to a farmer who, if troubled by a particular fox, can call the hunt and they will attend to target the foxes on that particular farm. Not all hunts are full dress open attendance affairs.
//The above statistics demonstrate that hunting kills are about equal to the number of foxes born - i.e. it does nothing to eradicate the fox population//
That is ridiculous - if the hunt didn't kill some foxes, more would be alive.
//That is what makes it true!//
I think you are falling into the anthropomorphic camp here Andy and allowing sentiment and prejudice to cloud your judgement. If you had seen first hand the damage foxes do, as I have, you would not be so ready to defend any means of controlling them.
And no 'free range' eggs or chickens. Imagine the furore that would create on AB.
//It's primary function fails then - you know as well as I do that the hunt fails more than it succeeds. And if chasing animals and tearing them apart represents a 'fun day out', then perhaps country people need to find other things to do 'for fun' that don't involve sadism.//
I don't know that the hunt fails more than it succeeds and it is presumptuous of you to assume I do. Success rate varies from hunt to hunt depending on the nature of the country they hunt and the amount of foxes present. Also, had you ever been to a hunt you would know that it is the hounds that chase the fox not the 'followers'.
I'm not really sure why you reproduce the tables of fox mortality because the point you are attempting to disprove is solely concerned with the success rate of hunts not of hunting's relative success in the control of foxes. Where hunting is invaluable is in the service it provides to a farmer who, if troubled by a particular fox, can call the hunt and they will attend to target the foxes on that particular farm. Not all hunts are full dress open attendance affairs.
//The above statistics demonstrate that hunting kills are about equal to the number of foxes born - i.e. it does nothing to eradicate the fox population//
That is ridiculous - if the hunt didn't kill some foxes, more would be alive.
//That is what makes it true!//
I think you are falling into the anthropomorphic camp here Andy and allowing sentiment and prejudice to cloud your judgement. If you had seen first hand the damage foxes do, as I have, you would not be so ready to defend any means of controlling them.
Shoota...I am not sure anyone is trying to defend the fox by any means. If it is causing damage and mayhem for Farmers, then of course it must be controlled.
But if you reported rats running around in your street, would you expect the local Council Pest Control Officer to turn up, in his van, or would you call on the local Hunt and expect them to arrive in fancy dress, en masse, and on horseback ?
But if you reported rats running around in your street, would you expect the local Council Pest Control Officer to turn up, in his van, or would you call on the local Hunt and expect them to arrive in fancy dress, en masse, and on horseback ?
I'm with Mikey on this.
Free range hens can be secured in a hen house overnight - as I am sure they must be because no hens would last a week if they were exposed day and night.
The notion that fox hunting with hounds makes any serious inroads into the fox population is a nonsense.
The idea that hunters do it to control foxes is hypocritical - they like chasing across the countryside in bright jackets making a racket and disturbing wildlife for miles around - but let's not dress it up (!) as some kind of rural public service.
I have no particular fondness or dislike for foxes, I am not anthropomorphical about them - even though I have read Roald Dahl's take on them.
My issue is with the hypocricy and sadism involved in hunting, plus its failure seriously to make a difference either way.
I can live with any hunter who says he is a bloodthirsty savage who likes to chase an animal to death - but not when he tries to come across as the farmers' friend.
Free range hens can be secured in a hen house overnight - as I am sure they must be because no hens would last a week if they were exposed day and night.
The notion that fox hunting with hounds makes any serious inroads into the fox population is a nonsense.
The idea that hunters do it to control foxes is hypocritical - they like chasing across the countryside in bright jackets making a racket and disturbing wildlife for miles around - but let's not dress it up (!) as some kind of rural public service.
I have no particular fondness or dislike for foxes, I am not anthropomorphical about them - even though I have read Roald Dahl's take on them.
My issue is with the hypocricy and sadism involved in hunting, plus its failure seriously to make a difference either way.
I can live with any hunter who says he is a bloodthirsty savage who likes to chase an animal to death - but not when he tries to come across as the farmers' friend.
The hunt operates in both guises Mikey, the 'cap' from the 'fancy dress' occasions being used to fund the existence of the hunt so it can also do the 'plain clothes' work.
The costumes worn are a tradition and serve to differentiate the officials of a hunt from the 'followers'. Many farmer/countryman followers wear a simple tweed jacket.
The fox is hunted by hounds in many countries, it is only this one (as far as I am aware) that has this anti problem and there is no doubt that many opponents of foxhunting are somewhat pink, if not outright scarlet, in political persuasion and swayed by the propaganda of class war.
In truth many people who hunt are wealthy, you need a certain amount of wonga to fund a horse and pay a subscription but many more are simple country folk of much more modest means.
The costumes worn are a tradition and serve to differentiate the officials of a hunt from the 'followers'. Many farmer/countryman followers wear a simple tweed jacket.
The fox is hunted by hounds in many countries, it is only this one (as far as I am aware) that has this anti problem and there is no doubt that many opponents of foxhunting are somewhat pink, if not outright scarlet, in political persuasion and swayed by the propaganda of class war.
In truth many people who hunt are wealthy, you need a certain amount of wonga to fund a horse and pay a subscription but many more are simple country folk of much more modest means.
shoota - //Andy you plainly know insufficient about the matter to argue and you are in no position to decide for them why hunters hunt.//
A well-worn argument used by 'country folk' to bleat about how 'city folk' don't understand them - but we can agree to differ, and hold our views.
//I think you are on one of your wind up trips again./
I never have, and never would do 'wind up trips', so it is impossible for me to be 'on one' again.
A well-worn argument used by 'country folk' to bleat about how 'city folk' don't understand them - but we can agree to differ, and hold our views.
//I think you are on one of your wind up trips again./
I never have, and never would do 'wind up trips', so it is impossible for me to be 'on one' again.
Never ceases to amaze me how animals are blamed for all the world's ills, there is no BIGGER pest on the planet than humans and all the destructive things they do to our wonderful planet, but hey let's kill wild animals, it's easier and they can't possibly defend themselves against our guns and hunting dogs !! The word 'coward' springs to mind ...
Shoota...I accept most of what you say, but perhaps other places are not as enlightened as Britain has become ?
In Italy and on Malta, for instance, 100,000's of small song birds are slaughtered every year in the name of sport. I am not sure how many thrushes or robins it would take to make a pie, but I am sure that it isn't necessary to kill these birds in order that a few people can eat. In Spain, bulls are still tormented and tortured to death every year for only one reason...so people can watch and enjoy.
So comparisons with other countries is perhaps not so wise, when it comes to defending our fox hunters.
And my fears for other arcane blood sports returning on the back of fox hunting is still unanswered. Would you welcome a return to Otter Hunting and Hare Coursing ?
I still maintain that when foxes need to be controlled, hunting just isn't an efficient way to proceed. If people want to dress up and go riding horses over our countryside, why can't they do that without killing things on the way ?
I regularly go into the countryside and enjoy it, by walking in the Brecon Beacons, enjoying a Pub lunch, taking photos, bird-watching etc, but I am unaware of causing death to the local fauna when so doing. Why does the "countryside alliance" need to kill things in order to have fun ?
In Italy and on Malta, for instance, 100,000's of small song birds are slaughtered every year in the name of sport. I am not sure how many thrushes or robins it would take to make a pie, but I am sure that it isn't necessary to kill these birds in order that a few people can eat. In Spain, bulls are still tormented and tortured to death every year for only one reason...so people can watch and enjoy.
So comparisons with other countries is perhaps not so wise, when it comes to defending our fox hunters.
And my fears for other arcane blood sports returning on the back of fox hunting is still unanswered. Would you welcome a return to Otter Hunting and Hare Coursing ?
I still maintain that when foxes need to be controlled, hunting just isn't an efficient way to proceed. If people want to dress up and go riding horses over our countryside, why can't they do that without killing things on the way ?
I regularly go into the countryside and enjoy it, by walking in the Brecon Beacons, enjoying a Pub lunch, taking photos, bird-watching etc, but I am unaware of causing death to the local fauna when so doing. Why does the "countryside alliance" need to kill things in order to have fun ?
Shoota...to watch and enjoy an animal hunt and tear apart another animal is sadism personified.
And the hypocrisy is because the hunting fraternity pretends its all about keeping foxes under control, when simple common sense would tell them that its just not an efficient way of doing it. They just enjoy it !
I repeat my question....if these people want to dress up and ride all over the countryside on horseback, why can't they do without killing things ?
And the hypocrisy is because the hunting fraternity pretends its all about keeping foxes under control, when simple common sense would tell them that its just not an efficient way of doing it. They just enjoy it !
I repeat my question....if these people want to dress up and ride all over the countryside on horseback, why can't they do without killing things ?
When I was in my early 20's I had a good friend who was a farm manager. In order to 'get on' he rented some additional ground and kept sheep for himself. One day I was shooting pigeons on the farm he managed when he came and picked me up, took me to where his little flock was grazing and showed me a ewe that had been giving birth. It was on the ground and the lamb had been eaten by a fox as it was being born, the back end was still in the ewe and the area around her vagina had been chewed away exposing bone.
He was distraught. We could smell dog fox from a patch of gorse nearby but we could not flush the fox.
He called the local hunt and they changed the next meet to a farm by his patch and 'drew' through that gorse, a fox was flushed and killed after a short chase.
Don't tell me hunts do not provide a service to farmers because it is simply untrue.
You should only make up your mind on disturbing the traditions that have evolved in the countryside when you know the full story.
He was distraught. We could smell dog fox from a patch of gorse nearby but we could not flush the fox.
He called the local hunt and they changed the next meet to a farm by his patch and 'drew' through that gorse, a fox was flushed and killed after a short chase.
Don't tell me hunts do not provide a service to farmers because it is simply untrue.
You should only make up your mind on disturbing the traditions that have evolved in the countryside when you know the full story.
Mikey - again you do not know fully what goes on - the kill is rarely witnessed by the field, often not even by the hunt servants.
Hunting, as I have acknowledged, is not always successful but can succeed in circumstances where other methods fail.
You should re-read my point about the followers having a jolly good ride whilst the huntsmen get on with their job - it operates on both levels.
Hunting, as I have acknowledged, is not always successful but can succeed in circumstances where other methods fail.
You should re-read my point about the followers having a jolly good ride whilst the huntsmen get on with their job - it operates on both levels.
Shoota ...your story is awful, and I feel for that Farmer. But was calling in the Hunt the only way of dealing with the problem ?
Are we sure that the fox that did the damage, was the one that the Hunt caught ? Was this the only fox in the area ?
Its a sad story but it stops a long way short of making a case for the resumption of hunting with dogs in Britain today. I would still like your views on Hare Coursing and Otter Hunting.
Are we sure that the fox that did the damage, was the one that the Hunt caught ? Was this the only fox in the area ?
Its a sad story but it stops a long way short of making a case for the resumption of hunting with dogs in Britain today. I would still like your views on Hare Coursing and Otter Hunting.
shoota -
//My issue is with the hypocricy and sadism involved in hunting, plus its failure seriously to make a difference either way.//
What hypocrisy? - the pretence that they are doing something for farmers, and it is a tough job, but someone has to do it.
What sadism? - chasing an animal to death by exhaustion, or being torn to shreds, or shot, for the fun of it - what's hard to understand?
What failure? - the fact that for all that effort, money, time, pain and sffering, they do next to nothing to eradicate the fox population - but that's OK, because that is not the idea anyway.
//My issue is with the hypocricy and sadism involved in hunting, plus its failure seriously to make a difference either way.//
What hypocrisy? - the pretence that they are doing something for farmers, and it is a tough job, but someone has to do it.
What sadism? - chasing an animal to death by exhaustion, or being torn to shreds, or shot, for the fun of it - what's hard to understand?
What failure? - the fact that for all that effort, money, time, pain and sffering, they do next to nothing to eradicate the fox population - but that's OK, because that is not the idea anyway.
True I can't say that the fox killed was the culprit but no more sheep were mauled and short of stationing a man with a gun on that field the hunt was the most efficient way of dealing with that problem - dogs can penetrate gorse better than men.
I don't support hare coursing with released hares but would support the right to hunt wild hare with dogs.
I have never been otter hunting but have been mink hunting several times and can see no difference in principle between the two animals except that the otter is in decline and is protected and therefore not a legitimate quarry.
I don't support hare coursing with released hares but would support the right to hunt wild hare with dogs.
I have never been otter hunting but have been mink hunting several times and can see no difference in principle between the two animals except that the otter is in decline and is protected and therefore not a legitimate quarry.
Andy you should debate on facts not what you think people might be thinking.What sadism? - chasing an animal to death by exhaustion, or being torn to shreds, or shot, for the fun of it - what's hard to understand?
//What sadism? - chasing an animal to death by exhaustion, or being torn to shreds, or shot, for the fun of it - what's hard to understand? //
I can only speak for myself here but I am confidant the majority of fieldsportmen feel similarly: I have thought long and hard about killing and I can say that I do not do it for fun, I take no joy from the death of my quarry but I do enjoy the 'chase' and get satisfaction from a successful 'hunt'. To be able to feed your family from the fruits of your endeavours is a special experience.
Primitive? Possibly...
//What sadism? - chasing an animal to death by exhaustion, or being torn to shreds, or shot, for the fun of it - what's hard to understand? //
I can only speak for myself here but I am confidant the majority of fieldsportmen feel similarly: I have thought long and hard about killing and I can say that I do not do it for fun, I take no joy from the death of my quarry but I do enjoy the 'chase' and get satisfaction from a successful 'hunt'. To be able to feed your family from the fruits of your endeavours is a special experience.
Primitive? Possibly...
