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Now Who Could Have Possibly Forecast That?
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Isn't there evidence that large numbers of Muslims in this country (and in the rest of Europe) DON'T want to blend in, Andy? Most of the "blending" I've seen is the West's trying to accommodate Muslim sensibilitie
14:56 Wed 09th Sep 2015
I've seen several pictures of 'our heroes' triumphant in Syria, then slinking into Europe. And no, I can't be bothered to dig them out. You'll have to take my word for it, or not. I don't care.
The fact that most countries in the ME have taken 0 refugees, citing fear of terrorism ought to be a pretty big clue. (even to the dumbest bunting hangers)
The fact that most countries in the ME have taken 0 refugees, citing fear of terrorism ought to be a pretty big clue. (even to the dumbest bunting hangers)
I know nothing about how terrorists groups work - something I share with probably everyone on here - but I'm willing to bet that it's far easier to radicalise a nice polite well-dressed university student and get them to carry a bomb, than dragging some raggedy starving refugee into the mix. Students are integrated, and have net access and carry rucksacks - nice and simple. Saves time and trouble all round.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Naomi - "andy-hughes, are we to assume that when you add "just a thought" to the end of your posts, their contents don't represent your genuine opinions?
Just asking - for the sake of clarity, you know."
Absolutely.
I think I have started to develop a habit of adding that because I am musing in print, as opposed to expressing an opinion.
It's developed because of the relentless snide remarks and personal attacks that have been forthcoming from a small but vitriolic band of AB'ers.
But you are right - my view is as a valid as anyone's, I know that better than anyone - so I shall stop adding my postscript, and let my opinions stand.
I ignore the nasties anyway, hoping they will get tired and go away, as bullies usually do - but it hasn't happened yet!
Just asking - for the sake of clarity, you know."
Absolutely.
I think I have started to develop a habit of adding that because I am musing in print, as opposed to expressing an opinion.
It's developed because of the relentless snide remarks and personal attacks that have been forthcoming from a small but vitriolic band of AB'ers.
But you are right - my view is as a valid as anyone's, I know that better than anyone - so I shall stop adding my postscript, and let my opinions stand.
I ignore the nasties anyway, hoping they will get tired and go away, as bullies usually do - but it hasn't happened yet!
I've asked you two questions, Andy: one about the threat posed by terrorism, the other about the support which devout Muslims may give for violence in defence of their religion.
Why are you not as worried as I am that four, forty or however many jihadis may be arriving in or returning to Europe?
How do you account for the mass demonstrations by Muslims throughout the world who were incensed by the cartoons and the Je suis Charlie marches rather than the violent murders?
When you can answer these two very easy questions I have a more difficult one for you.
Why are you not as worried as I am that four, forty or however many jihadis may be arriving in or returning to Europe?
How do you account for the mass demonstrations by Muslims throughout the world who were incensed by the cartoons and the Je suis Charlie marches rather than the violent murders?
When you can answer these two very easy questions I have a more difficult one for you.
vetuste - "Why are you not as worried as I am that four, forty or however many jihadis may be arriving in or returning to Europe?"
Because there is absolutely nothing I can do about it, and one of the major rules I live by is not to worry about anything I cannot influence or change.
"How do you account for the mass demonstrations by Muslims throughout the world who were incensed by the cartoons and the Je suis Charlie marches rather than the violent murders?"
Because I believe that, for Muslims, the offence to their faith by the cartoons outweighed the horror of the murders. Not a view I subscribe to, but I believe it to be theirs.
"When you can answer these two very easy questions I have a more difficult one for you."
I look forward to it.
Because there is absolutely nothing I can do about it, and one of the major rules I live by is not to worry about anything I cannot influence or change.
"How do you account for the mass demonstrations by Muslims throughout the world who were incensed by the cartoons and the Je suis Charlie marches rather than the violent murders?"
Because I believe that, for Muslims, the offence to their faith by the cartoons outweighed the horror of the murders. Not a view I subscribe to, but I believe it to be theirs.
"When you can answer these two very easy questions I have a more difficult one for you."
I look forward to it.
"Because I believe that, for Muslims, the offence to their faith by the cartoons outweighed the horror of the murders. Not a view I subscribe to, but I believe it to be theirs.".
Then why do you want people who think like this in our country, Andy? Isn't this something which is, or at least OUGHT to be within our control?
Then why do you want people who think like this in our country, Andy? Isn't this something which is, or at least OUGHT to be within our control?
vetuste - ""Because I believe that, for Muslims, the offence to their faith by the cartoons outweighed the horror of the murders. Not a view I subscribe to, but I believe it to be theirs.".
Then why do you want people who think like this in our country, Andy? Isn't this something which is, or at least OUGHT to be within our control?"
Contrary to what may be the perception by some on AB, I have never claimed to 'want' anyone in this country - and that includes large swathes of the indigenous population!
But we have to accept that we as a society do not 'own' this island on which we live, and immigration and emigration have gone on around the world since man arrived as a species, and it isn't going to stop now.
Then why do you want people who think like this in our country, Andy? Isn't this something which is, or at least OUGHT to be within our control?"
Contrary to what may be the perception by some on AB, I have never claimed to 'want' anyone in this country - and that includes large swathes of the indigenous population!
But we have to accept that we as a society do not 'own' this island on which we live, and immigration and emigration have gone on around the world since man arrived as a species, and it isn't going to stop now.
Another way of asking the question in my last post: is there a moral difference between (a) the revulsion against the murders (the cultural attitude of you and me) and (b) the revulsion against the cartoons (the cultural attitude of many of our fellow citizens)? Or are the two cultural norms equally valid and a sign of the vibrant diversity of today's Britain?
vetuste - "Another way of asking the question in my last post: is there a moral difference between (a) the revulsion against the murders (the cultural attitude of you and me) and (b) the revulsion against the cartoons (the cultural attitude of many of our fellow citizens)? Or are the two cultural norms equally valid and a sign of the vibrant diversity of today's Britain?"
From a white British atheist perspective - which is obviously the only one I can speak from - I find the notion of being more outraged about religious offence than horrified by murder to be one I cannot reconcile.
But we should also be aware, that no-one has to make a choice between those two positions - it is perfectly possible to be outraged about the cartoons to the point of taking to the streets - as some Muslims were, and it is possible to be outraged about the murders - and, importantly, it is perfectly possible to feel both in infinitely varying degrees.
So although I would say that being more upset about faith than murder is not a position I would wish to take - I can understand from a detached perspective, that such things are important to fervent believers.
I have never thought of anything as important enough to demonstrate in the street about - but that is because I don't think it is an effective form of protest, not because I don't care.
From a white British atheist perspective - which is obviously the only one I can speak from - I find the notion of being more outraged about religious offence than horrified by murder to be one I cannot reconcile.
But we should also be aware, that no-one has to make a choice between those two positions - it is perfectly possible to be outraged about the cartoons to the point of taking to the streets - as some Muslims were, and it is possible to be outraged about the murders - and, importantly, it is perfectly possible to feel both in infinitely varying degrees.
So although I would say that being more upset about faith than murder is not a position I would wish to take - I can understand from a detached perspective, that such things are important to fervent believers.
I have never thought of anything as important enough to demonstrate in the street about - but that is because I don't think it is an effective form of protest, not because I don't care.
"But we have to accept that we as a society do not 'own' this island on which we live, and immigration and emigration have gone on around the world since man arrived as a species, and it isn't going to stop now."
I'm nearly speechless. Do you own a house, Andy? Or do you merely "own" it? Do you have a spare room? No, maybe I'd prefer the master bedroom.
How many years of self-loathing courses do you have to take to arrive at this contempt for your own culture?
I'm nearly speechless. Do you own a house, Andy? Or do you merely "own" it? Do you have a spare room? No, maybe I'd prefer the master bedroom.
How many years of self-loathing courses do you have to take to arrive at this contempt for your own culture?
"Try POINTLESSLY to appease the savages".
The people who share property rights with us (with your sanction and approval) will not stop when they've bullied us into submission over cartoons. They've won that one already, of course. Well done, Andy. This is something a healthy society with respect for its own values could influence.
The savages also have views which you as a tolerant multiculturalist can understand: they don't like homosexuals, they believe in the segregation of the sexes, they hate Jews. If you and SP can't drag TTT and me kicking and screaming out of the 19th century, how do you propose to drag half a million savages kicking and screaming out of the 7th?
The people who share property rights with us (with your sanction and approval) will not stop when they've bullied us into submission over cartoons. They've won that one already, of course. Well done, Andy. This is something a healthy society with respect for its own values could influence.
The savages also have views which you as a tolerant multiculturalist can understand: they don't like homosexuals, they believe in the segregation of the sexes, they hate Jews. If you and SP can't drag TTT and me kicking and screaming out of the 19th century, how do you propose to drag half a million savages kicking and screaming out of the 7th?
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