Mmr Jab...worrying News

[mikey4444]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34335509

The entirely discredited scare story of a decade ago still seems to have an influence. According to the link, in some areas, vaccination has fallen to less than 80%.

Why are people not taking the advice of health visitors and their GPs ? Its a no brainer to me !

[Peter Pedant]

retro - rabies vaccine is NOT recommended unless you been bitten by a ?possibly rabid dog

were you ? ( did the dog die within ten days ? )

and yes Pasteurs vaccine had lots and lots of side effects
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_vaccine

wiki rather poncily says that the author clearly has links with production ( = knows what he is talking about )

[Retrochic]

Peter -yes I was bitten by a rabid animal (not a dog) in the Northwest Territories in Canada. The animal was caught and killed and tested positive for rabies - I had to have rabies serum then a course of injections over 6 weeks.

[jim360]

I'd like to think I'm making it based on evidence. Empirically it's pretty clear that, at the very least, the overwhelming majority of children undergo vaccination with no ill effects whatsoever. It's also pretty much empirical that withdrawal of MMR has no impact on autism development rates (eg the Japanese population, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763 , which study even reports autism rates increasing on withdrawal of MMR, although that link is unlikely to be causal).

Measles is, incidentally, potentially fatal. In the UK, the danger is fairly slight, but in other countries the death rate is not insignificant. It's much lower now than in the past, but in 2013 nearly 100,000 people died from measles or related complications. So MMR matters, and the world is a somewhat healthier place for its existence.

[jim360]

Yes, that's sad too in a way retrochic -- then again, the research that suggests vaccines are dangerous is seriously discredited, so those who find such papers in their own research are reading things that have been refuted elsewhere. It would be a better world if we were all more medically-savvy, but if reading into the subject convinces you not to get vaccinated then you're reading the wrong stuff, or not reading enough of the right stuff.

Anyway, I've said my bit, and I'll leave it at that.

[Retrochic]

There you go falling into the trap 'measles is potentially fatal' -so is flu!!! would you give a new born baby a flu jab!! As you say, the danger of fatality from measles in the Western world is slight -so why take the risk? Its up to the parent to make this decision and wrong to class anyone who makes this decision not to vaccinate as 'sad'.

[Prudie]

I've considered this throughout to be talking about UK parents. "Empirically it's pretty clear that, at the very least, the overwhelming majority of children" go through measles, mumps and rubella too "with no ill effects whatsoever".
Parenting sometimes requires instinct and gut choices rather than reading up the correct scientific papers.

[Sqad]

\\\\Parenting sometimes requires instinct and gut choices rather than reading up the correct scientific papers.\\\

;-)........and that also applies to the Practice and Study of Medicine.......

[mikey4444]

Retrochic...of course its up to the individual parent to decide. You were in Canada at the time of your decision, and I am not familiar with the situation there at the time. You were unfortunate in having a GP that was taken in by Wakefield.

But here in Britain, the vast majority of medical opinion was against Wakefield. I repeat myself here but the Wiki entry is quite clear...his research was seriously and fatally flawed, and the actions of the GMC proved that beyond reasonable doubt.

Again, I repeat myself but if my family Doctor had said to me that the MMR jab was safe, why would I argue ?

Childhood diseases can lead to serious complications. Take Rubella for instance ::

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Rubella/Pages/Introduction.aspx

But something that is not discussed is that by not vaccinating your children, you put other children ( and adults ) at risk

[ummmm]

My aunt contracted rubella when she was pregnant. My cousin is severely disabled because of it. And you're right, Mikey, it's not just the child at risk, it's everyone they come into contact with.

[mikey4444]

Morning Sqad !

As a medical man of many years standing, (!) what is your professional opinion of the Wakefield saga ? I have been reading up on it and I quickly become bogged down in the terminology, not having a scientific background, but the evidence seems pretty conclusive to me that Wakefield's work was seriously flawed.

[Prudie]

I don't believe (not me anyway) that it was vaccinating against the individual diseases that caused any alarms or reluctance, it was the cocktail of the 3 at once - and that was cost driven.

[mikey4444]

Prudie...I have seen very little evidence that the three-in-one vaccine caused any problems at all. As for the cost basis, if its cheaper and it works just as well, then the NHS should always consider this option.

[Sqad]

mikey......good morning.
Wakefield's qualifications were impeccable (re the "twit" posts) and he submitted his research to one of the most prestigious journals in the world......the Lancet. Highly qualified medical men and scientists reviewed his presentation, were impressed, to the extent that they were published.
The "establishment " was fooled...........or was it?
By this time parents were already concerned about the vaccine and the medical fraternity was struggling.

\\\Why are people not taking the advice of health visitors and their GPs ? Its a no brainer to me !\\\

That was your OP question and the answer is obvious.......because a certain number of parents were not convinced.

As I have said on many occasions.....Medicine is not a pure science.

[Prudie]

You've lost me a bit mikey, as i said this whole thing/scare revolved around the mixing of the 3 at once didn't it? Of course the NHS should consider cost but not to the extent it becomes cheap and not even cheerful.

[mikey4444]

Thanks Sqad !

I was hoping you would be able to shed some light on the veracity of Wakefield's claims. The Wiki entry for him, to be honest, says more about his dishonesty, than it does about the research and the evidence that he unearthed. The word fraud is used quite a bit.

I understand that most of his co-authors then withdrew their support for the study's interpretations, after the GMC investigated more thoroughly, following the findings of the Sunday Times.

So I am still unsure if there is a proven causal link between the MMR jab and
and the appearance of autism and bowel disease. Perhaps I am looking for 100% proof, which is rarely possible in science.

But has his theory been proved wrong enough, in the same way that we would say in a court of law....proved beyond reasonable doubt ?

[joncavo]

Many people are not taken in by the advice from health professionals because they have personal experience of the down side of vaccines. Some have been persuaded to have a second child vaccinated against their better judgement and witnessed a similar adverse reaction which also lead to long term development problems.
Many people know that the collection of data on severe adverse reactions is sporadic with a recognised statistic of less than 10% reported. There is limited, if any, follow up on these few side effects that are reported to the MHRA which means that this watchdog does not know if the children that had reactions have fully recovered or gone on to develop long term disabilities.

[mikey4444]

joncavo...."taken in" ? That phrase has never occurred to me when used in the context of a Doctors advice ! If my Doctors gives me advice, I don't normally seek a second opinion from anyone else...who does ?

In reality, people were swayed not by an alternative opinion, but a campaign in the popular press. ie barrack-room lawyers.

[naomi24]

//I don't normally seek a second opinion from anyone else...who does ? //

If I'm not happy with a doctor's diagnosis, I do.

[mikey4444]

If I were to seek a second opinion, it would be with another Doctor, not the pages of popular newspapers or daft daytime "Sofa" TV programs.

[joncavo]

mikey4444: You've hit the nail on the head! When health professionals give advice on vaccines, in the main, it wont be their own research that they draw on, it will be information that has cascaded down from the vaccine policy-makers on how to deal with concerns raised by parents.

The policy-makers want to have a high uptake of vaccines to maintain herd immunity and but if their watchdog has failed to collect and investigate adverse reactions properly the information they cascade down will in itself be flawed.