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Politics2 mins ago
Arming British Police
Forgive me for putting this in News when I do not supply some link to invite you to debate this thread.
Earlier today on LBC radio it was asked if we think, in light of Paris, that British police should be armed permanently.
If gunmen burst into the Savoy Hotel would it be better that a local copper had a firearm rather than hide in a corner and radio for armed back up from an ARV who could be 9 minutes plus away? Remember Lee Rigby. Officers on scene but unarmed and powerless until ARV arrived.
Not all police officers feel happy about carrying firearms. I can respect that decision although as a member of a unit that carried a H&K MP5 single shot 9mm carbine plus a Glock 9mm for the last 20yrs of my service I was none too happy about some of my colleagues who never loaded their weapons and locked them in the glove box of the vehicles they travelled in.
We are told we have members of the Special Recognicance Regiment patrolling in plain clothes around London along with armed plain clothes police officers. Allegedly the army officers are not armed. I hope that is not true. Why bother to have them? Of course we have an army member arrested for murder during terrorist troubles years ago so perhaps the SRR are not happy with the so called rules of engagement the H.O. wish to saddle them with.
There are many ex police/army firearms trained personnel living in London
and other towns/cities. Would you feel safer knowing that there may be an armed gentleman dining next to you who would be happy to intervene should a terrorist storm your restaurant.
It isn't that stupid or laughable. The LDV/Homeguard (Dad's Army) were entrusted with firearms to protect their countrymen in times of war.
Obviously some older gentlemen would have to be tested as to their capability in possessing and using a firearm in a close quarter situation but do any body think there may be some merit in the suggestion that sensible ,capable persons who have been trained in the use of firearms be allowed to carry them covertly and use them to protect their fellow citizens?
r
Earlier today on LBC radio it was asked if we think, in light of Paris, that British police should be armed permanently.
If gunmen burst into the Savoy Hotel would it be better that a local copper had a firearm rather than hide in a corner and radio for armed back up from an ARV who could be 9 minutes plus away? Remember Lee Rigby. Officers on scene but unarmed and powerless until ARV arrived.
Not all police officers feel happy about carrying firearms. I can respect that decision although as a member of a unit that carried a H&K MP5 single shot 9mm carbine plus a Glock 9mm for the last 20yrs of my service I was none too happy about some of my colleagues who never loaded their weapons and locked them in the glove box of the vehicles they travelled in.
We are told we have members of the Special Recognicance Regiment patrolling in plain clothes around London along with armed plain clothes police officers. Allegedly the army officers are not armed. I hope that is not true. Why bother to have them? Of course we have an army member arrested for murder during terrorist troubles years ago so perhaps the SRR are not happy with the so called rules of engagement the H.O. wish to saddle them with.
There are many ex police/army firearms trained personnel living in London
and other towns/cities. Would you feel safer knowing that there may be an armed gentleman dining next to you who would be happy to intervene should a terrorist storm your restaurant.
It isn't that stupid or laughable. The LDV/Homeguard (Dad's Army) were entrusted with firearms to protect their countrymen in times of war.
Obviously some older gentlemen would have to be tested as to their capability in possessing and using a firearm in a close quarter situation but do any body think there may be some merit in the suggestion that sensible ,capable persons who have been trained in the use of firearms be allowed to carry them covertly and use them to protect their fellow citizens?
r
Answers
I'm a little concerned about the police in general being armed, because of the number of '
11:46 Mon 16th Nov 2015
PP
I am being "partial" with regard to certain people who are allowed to carry a covert firearm for the rest of their lives even in retirement.I am not prepared to divulge who they are or compromise their safety/security.
It is enough of a burden to risk their lives for others in the course of their duties without the furtherance of their concerns in retirement.
I can give you a long list of police departments in the UK who carry firearms on a daily basis. Quite overtly. No secret. You may be surprised just how many.
I am being "partial" with regard to certain people who are allowed to carry a covert firearm for the rest of their lives even in retirement.I am not prepared to divulge who they are or compromise their safety/security.
It is enough of a burden to risk their lives for others in the course of their duties without the furtherance of their concerns in retirement.
I can give you a long list of police departments in the UK who carry firearms on a daily basis. Quite overtly. No secret. You may be surprised just how many.
extraordinary events require extraordinary solutions. We would all like to live in utopia but we don't. Armed Police response teams are no longer effective in a rapidly moving terrorist attack. What used to take minutes or hours to evolve now takes seconds, by the time a response team arrives the event could well be over. If as a nation we still don't want an armed police force then what retrocop suggests is at least a partial solution, an undercover "army" of highly trained weapon carriers scattered across the country could indeed save lives.
//baza
My late father, a police officer for thirty years and also did his bit in the far east during ww2, would turn in his grave at the thought of armed police on the streets. Yes he did acknowledge the need for trained specialist officers but not all carrying guns.//
How long ago was that? Times change. Did your late father experience terrorism on a wide scale in the UK during his service.
Little did I know that I would work in Central London during an extensive IRA bombing campaign for a few years when I joined in the 60's.
Al queda, ISIL, Baeder Meinhoff didn't exist yet I ended up carrying a firearm (s) on a daily basis during the last 20years of my service.
No good looking back to Dixon of Dock Green. Even he got shot in The Blue Lamp back in 1949.
My late father, a police officer for thirty years and also did his bit in the far east during ww2, would turn in his grave at the thought of armed police on the streets. Yes he did acknowledge the need for trained specialist officers but not all carrying guns.//
How long ago was that? Times change. Did your late father experience terrorism on a wide scale in the UK during his service.
Little did I know that I would work in Central London during an extensive IRA bombing campaign for a few years when I joined in the 60's.
Al queda, ISIL, Baeder Meinhoff didn't exist yet I ended up carrying a firearm (s) on a daily basis during the last 20years of my service.
No good looking back to Dixon of Dock Green. Even he got shot in The Blue Lamp back in 1949.
vulcan42
As I mentioned earlier.The civilian populace did not appear to have many concerns about Dad's Army being armed to protect them albeit some ancient weapons carried by ancient men :-). May well of been a few negligent discharges but I don't recall reading about them running riot and causing civilian casualties.
As I mentioned earlier.The civilian populace did not appear to have many concerns about Dad's Army being armed to protect them albeit some ancient weapons carried by ancient men :-). May well of been a few negligent discharges but I don't recall reading about them running riot and causing civilian casualties.
-- answer removed --
Islay
Ok fair comment. How would you like to think yourself as being protected should you have been in a Parisian restaurant when gunmen burst in.
Even though the French police are armed,I concede that the death toll was horrific.Could it have been worse if the police did not have firearms.?
Would they storm the concert hall with batons in order to save more lives from cowardly armed gunmen. Have you any solutions to offer?
Ok fair comment. How would you like to think yourself as being protected should you have been in a Parisian restaurant when gunmen burst in.
Even though the French police are armed,I concede that the death toll was horrific.Could it have been worse if the police did not have firearms.?
Would they storm the concert hall with batons in order to save more lives from cowardly armed gunmen. Have you any solutions to offer?
-- answer removed --
Islay, I agree with you but we're not talking about armchair cowboys. The suggestion is trained, disciplined, coordinated men & woman, living normal lives capable of fighting back. Dismissing every suggestion put forward and offering no solution will not save lives. If we live in fear the terrorists have won, if we do nothing they have won.
Even if gun carrying became legal and more common in the UK I doubt it would lead to the sort of problems we see in the US. There just isn't as much of a trigger-happy gun-totin' culture about here, so at least a part of the problem -- the ease of getting hold of a gun for people who really shouldn't have them despite good intentions -- I don't envisage happening here.
All the same, an increased proliferation of guns even in trained officers or ex-officers would make me feel more uncomfortable, rather than less. Terrorist attacks remain rare events, so most of the time it isn't really a threat to our safety. To be sure this is partly the case because of fine work by the security services, but nevertheless terrorism is not a constant, daily threat to most people's lives. Guns being present in the streets all the time runs a risk of accidents, on the other hand, or of even the trained people with guns making a snap wrong decision that such-and-such is a threat, even though he wasn't -- and, if you could see the guns, would for me act more as a potent reminder of the possible threat than security against it.
It should be discussed for sure but in my opinion it's better to keep armed police officers as a last resort rather than a first one.
All the same, an increased proliferation of guns even in trained officers or ex-officers would make me feel more uncomfortable, rather than less. Terrorist attacks remain rare events, so most of the time it isn't really a threat to our safety. To be sure this is partly the case because of fine work by the security services, but nevertheless terrorism is not a constant, daily threat to most people's lives. Guns being present in the streets all the time runs a risk of accidents, on the other hand, or of even the trained people with guns making a snap wrong decision that such-and-such is a threat, even though he wasn't -- and, if you could see the guns, would for me act more as a potent reminder of the possible threat than security against it.
It should be discussed for sure but in my opinion it's better to keep armed police officers as a last resort rather than a first one.
in france, all the police are armed. in the uk, there are barely 6000 trained armed officers. in a situation where every second counts, we simply cannot respond as the french did, with hundreds of armed officers on the street in minutes and thousands within a few hours. we can't do it.
against that, the type of attack seen in france, whist possible in the uk, is less likely in the same scenario, because automatic weapons are not as easy to obtain here.
at some stage, the risk of a paris-type attack may increase to tip the balance but at present, it hasn't happened. yet.
against that, the type of attack seen in france, whist possible in the uk, is less likely in the same scenario, because automatic weapons are not as easy to obtain here.
at some stage, the risk of a paris-type attack may increase to tip the balance but at present, it hasn't happened. yet.
PiedPiper
I would suggest that NO ONE with any medical qualification had deemed them safe or sane to legally possess a firearm so you don't have to name names.
It would seem a lot of the fear being displayed here is of a gun totin,rootin shootin US style approach to firearms.
I fear Dirty Harry may of done the UK citizenry a disservice with their misconceptions.
But have no fear. Illegal firearms abound in this Isle and are still easily acquired.
Semtex has a distinctive almond paste smell. A human can,with a keen sense of smell ,recognise it never mind a sniffer dog.
It is manufactured in Chezcoslavakia . In the 70's and 80's it made it's way through Eastern Europe to Libya where Mr Gadaffi supplied it to the IRA who brought it to the mainland by the Transit van load via the Irish sea.We had pretty good intel then who our enemies were but they still managed to get it here along with weaponry. Do any of you really believe a Paris style atrocity will not happen again. Nice to think it wouldn't. Mind how you go. :-)
I would suggest that NO ONE with any medical qualification had deemed them safe or sane to legally possess a firearm so you don't have to name names.
It would seem a lot of the fear being displayed here is of a gun totin,rootin shootin US style approach to firearms.
I fear Dirty Harry may of done the UK citizenry a disservice with their misconceptions.
But have no fear. Illegal firearms abound in this Isle and are still easily acquired.
Semtex has a distinctive almond paste smell. A human can,with a keen sense of smell ,recognise it never mind a sniffer dog.
It is manufactured in Chezcoslavakia . In the 70's and 80's it made it's way through Eastern Europe to Libya where Mr Gadaffi supplied it to the IRA who brought it to the mainland by the Transit van load via the Irish sea.We had pretty good intel then who our enemies were but they still managed to get it here along with weaponry. Do any of you really believe a Paris style atrocity will not happen again. Nice to think it wouldn't. Mind how you go. :-)
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