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Ok I Know I'm Going To Called Names For This But......
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Surely we need to resolve the whole toilet/changing room issue don't we?
Surely we need to resolve the whole toilet/changing room issue don't we?
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Prudie, If it’s as unimportant to women as Jim seems to think it should be, perhaps rather than cause anyone to feel uncomfortable he might consider wearing a pair of jeans on his night out and using the men’s toilet. He can’t possibly be offended by the sight of ‘a winkie’, as Douglas puts it. He’s used men’s toilets all his life.
AOG, you’re being awkward.
AOG, you’re being awkward.
It's something that, perhaps, will require more thought from both sides. But since it's impractical for all public places to provide yet more toilets (you would presumably need at least two extra sets, for transmen and transwomen) -- and since by now, transpeople are a fact of public life, and can't be held in private any longer -- it will have to be resolved one way or another. Perhaps the best solution in the long term to do away with the idea of communal toilets altogether.
The problem is that while some women are, not unreasonably, uncomfortable with the thought of "men in dresses" leering at them in the loo, transpeople who are obliged to go to the loo opposite to the gender they identify will also risk being uncomfortable because of it. Not to mention the inverse problem -- how would women feel if you saw this person wandering around your toilets?
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The problem is that while some women are, not unreasonably, uncomfortable with the thought of "men in dresses" leering at them in the loo, transpeople who are obliged to go to the loo opposite to the gender they identify will also risk being uncomfortable because of it. Not to mention the inverse problem -- how would women feel if you saw this person wandering around your toilets?
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AOG do they still exist? I last used one around 40 years ago when we moved into a flat in Bristol during the switchover to natural gas. The flat had been unoccupied when the routine changes were made so the flat’s gas was disconnected and we found when we moved in that we had no hot water or cooking facilities. We went to the public baths at Jacob’s Wells in the interim and the baths and showers were all in individual private cubicles. It was a very old building so divided into men’s and ladies’ facilities but once inside, as I said, all the cubicles were quite private.
Naomi, I've never said it was unimportant, or even (see my previous post) unreasonable. I'm just saying that your discomfort isn't my primary concern, any more than mine is yours.
Also, I think it's going a bit far to suggest that transpeople should essentially never wear the clothes they want to in order to avoid this problem emerging.
Also, I think it's going a bit far to suggest that transpeople should essentially never wear the clothes they want to in order to avoid this problem emerging.
And, again to illustrate the inverse problem, here's "a man" going to the gents':
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Jim, //I'm just saying that your discomfort isn't my primary concern//
Clearly!
Ratter, communal toilets are a different thing, and perhaps that is the answer. However, Jim is asking that specific men – those who choose to dress as women – and there’s no way of telling, on sight, whether a man is genuinely going through the transgender process or is simply a transvestite who may or may not be a creep – be allowed special concessions - and that, I think, is selfish and wrong.
Clearly!
Ratter, communal toilets are a different thing, and perhaps that is the answer. However, Jim is asking that specific men – those who choose to dress as women – and there’s no way of telling, on sight, whether a man is genuinely going through the transgender process or is simply a transvestite who may or may not be a creep – be allowed special concessions - and that, I think, is selfish and wrong.
I would argue it's selfish and wrong the other way, Naomi -- especially as you seem determined to characterise me as "possibly a creep", as opposed to almost certainly not one. What bothers me as well is how selfish you seem to think I am, despite the fact that it's you who seems determined to dictate how I dress (and where I pee), according to your discomfort. Which is fairly presumptuous, to say the least, and for that matter relies on you noticing in the first place. I mean, do you usually scrutinise all the people who enter public toilets to ensure that they are who they appear to be? Or do you not pay any attention, because after all, it's none of your business?
And, like I asked earlier, the knock-on effect is that people who are clearly, outwardly, men, would have to share your bathroom instead. Is that really preferable to people who are outwardly women?
But anyway, never mind. The law in the UK is, for now, on my side. So I guess you'll just have to get used to it.
And, like I asked earlier, the knock-on effect is that people who are clearly, outwardly, men, would have to share your bathroom instead. Is that really preferable to people who are outwardly women?
But anyway, never mind. The law in the UK is, for now, on my side. So I guess you'll just have to get used to it.
Jim, //especially as you seem determined to characterise me as "possibly a creep//
Hold up! You’re out of order! I didn’t say that – or imply it. Don’t put words into my mouth. I’m not responsible for your insecurities.
////it's you who seems determined to dictate how I dress//
I didn’t say that either.
//after all, it's none of your business?//
If there’s someone in ladies toilets who shouldn’t be there, like it or not, it is my business.
//And, like I asked earlier, the knock-on effect is that people who are clearly, outwardly, men, would have to share your bathroom instead. Is that really preferable to people who are outwardly women?//
Yes it is preferable. I don’t have a problem with communal toilets. At least with those people who might be tempted to lurk around ladies toilets are aware that a man who looks and behaves like a man can walk in on them at any time. A bit of a deterrent, I’d say.
Hold up! You’re out of order! I didn’t say that – or imply it. Don’t put words into my mouth. I’m not responsible for your insecurities.
////it's you who seems determined to dictate how I dress//
I didn’t say that either.
//after all, it's none of your business?//
If there’s someone in ladies toilets who shouldn’t be there, like it or not, it is my business.
//And, like I asked earlier, the knock-on effect is that people who are clearly, outwardly, men, would have to share your bathroom instead. Is that really preferable to people who are outwardly women?//
Yes it is preferable. I don’t have a problem with communal toilets. At least with those people who might be tempted to lurk around ladies toilets are aware that a man who looks and behaves like a man can walk in on them at any time. A bit of a deterrent, I’d say.
