Labour And Lib Dems 'would Fight Grammar School Plans'

[mikey4444]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37002495

I'm surprised that these new plans by Mrs May hasn't been mentioned on AB before. For me, I think Grammar Schools should remain in the 1960's.

[Togo]

Of course everyone who failed the 11+ is anti Grammar School. I was fortunate enough to attend a Grammar school but like danny had to leave and get a job aged 16 due to family economics. I still thank the school for the education and discipline that was instilled in me as a boy raised on a massive council estate. Have you seen the latest figures for Grammar school attendance?? 28% of the pupils are from ethnic minorities, whilst secondary modern schools have 16% of its pupils from the same minorities. Lol that must put the dahlings in a bit of a quandary.

[Cloverjo]

I was always in favour of grammar schools, but now almost everyone who wants to go to university will go, I don't think it matters so much.

[naomi24]

Andy-hughes, my experience of current day nursery school isn’t yours, but pre-school isn’t the subject of this discussion. That said, I didn’t attend pre-school at all – in fact I didn’t start school until I was six – but that didn’t stop me passing the 11-plus and gaining a place in Grammar school.

[andy-hughes]

Old_Geezer - //Regardless the benefits or otherwise of nursery attendance it doesn't constitute academic education and so has no effect on legitimacy on using the services of a doctor. //

Contradicting that view is exactly my point.

All children are going to grow up to be part of society - that includes doctors, plumbers, architects, housewives, mums, dads, every single individual member of society should receive a properly resourced and funded nursery education.

You are quite correct, it does not constitute academic education, it is far more important than that. It should encompass the teaching of self-respect, respect for others, values, tolerance, a moral compass, the ability to integrate, awareness, sensitivity, in fact everything that goes into the making of a rounded individual who will be a valuable member of future society.

Without that specific education in place, society continues to lurch downwards as selfishness and avarice, intolerance and violence continue to grow.

It can be stopped at source, small children - but it never will.


A doctor who, in any case, is simply plying their trade, so again has no connection with who should be allowed to employ their services.

[Old_Geezer]

It's not the fact that university is more or less a right of passage for all today, rather than a privilege for those who have the ability to best use the service, Jo; it's about the educational grounding and achieving the best each individual can by matching the education style to the individual.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //Andy-hughes, my experience of current day nursery school isn’t yours, but pre-school isn’t the subject of this discussion. That said, I didn’t attend pre-school at all – in fact I didn’t start school until I was six – but that didn’t stop me passing the 11-plus and gaining a place in Grammar school. //

I am simply widening the debate a little - if the current crop of politicians had received a proper pre-school education, maybe they would not be as venal and self-serving as they are now - with the attendant elitist attitudes that think that selective education is in any way a good idea.

[Old_Geezer]

You'd need to prove/convince of that view rather than believe/state it A-H.

[andy-hughes]

Cloverjo - //I was always in favour of grammar schools, but now almost everyone who wants to go to university will go, I don't think it matters so much. //

I think that attitude is in itself a problem.

Successive governments push university education as though it is an essential for everyone, and clearly it is not. There a far more non-academic young people who are being failed because there is no budget for the type of education that they need to progress, because academia is seen in such an elitist way - to the detriment of society as a whole.

If the money saved by not allowing the drop-out third to be fooled into applying and failing to fit in was funnelled into nursery education, that would be an excellent start.l

[andy-hughes]

Old_Geezer - //You'd need to prove/convince of that view rather than believe/state it A-H. //

Like everyone on AB on every thread, I am offering a viewpoint, I am not necessarily in a position to prove my point - and nor are you. If you failed to be convinced by my argument, then so be it.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, you're not widening the debate - you're steering it off course. This is about Grammar schools - not pre-school. Wanting the best education for those with ability isn't elitist - it's common sense. Wasting brains is not.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //Wanting the best education for those with ability isn't elitist - it's common sense. //

It is not the concept of best education that is being debated though - it is the provision that is the root of the issue.

Best education for everyone should be the starting point - not looking down on the 'ordinary people' and condescending to give the brighter oiks a leg-up.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, //looking down on the 'ordinary people' and condescending to give the brighter oiks a leg-up. //

Who's doing that?

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, //looking down on the 'ordinary people' and condescending to give the brighter oiks a leg-up. //

Who's doing that? //

The Prime Minister, and probably the Education Secretary, who is currently on the fence waiting to see what the fall-out is like before committing.

[ludwig]

There's an awful load of inverse snobbery and garbage talked about grammar schools, usually from people who were too thick to get into one themselves. They provided a means for academically inclined people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get into university, and everyone else had to settle for an apprenticeship at the local factory.

However, these days that's been turned on it's head, and pretty much anyone can get into Uni as long as they're prepared to be in debt for the rest of their life, whereas people would kill to get an apprenticeship at the local factory, or even just to still have a local factory.

For that reason, as someone else has already said, I don't think grammars would be as important these days. Still a good idea though.

[ludwig]

There's an awful load of inverse snobbery and garbage talked about grammar schools, usually from people who were too thick to get into one themselves. They provided a means for academically inclined people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get into university, and everyone else had to settle for an apprenticeship at the local factory.

However, these days that's been turned on it's head, and pretty much anyone can get into Uni as long as they're prepared to be in debt for the rest of their life, whereas people would kill to get an apprenticeship at the local factory, or even just to still have a local factory.

For that reason, as someone else has already said, I don't think grammars would be as important these days. Still a good idea though.

[ludwig]

Apologies - browser problems. For some reason I can only post 2 replies at a time.

[ludwig]

Apologies - browser problems. For some reason I can only post 2 replies at a time.

[andy-hughes]

Ludwig - //There's an awful load of inverse snobbery and garbage talked about grammar schools, usually from people who were too thick to get into one themselves. They provided a means for academically inclined people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get into university, and everyone else had to settle for an apprenticeship at the local factory. //

I can offer direct experience here - I attended a grammar school in the mid-sxties.

It was snobbish, elitist, pretentious, divisive, and I hated every single minute of it.

So - as a product of the 'grammar school system', I would not wish it on anyone.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes at 11.32. You're making that up.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes at 11:39. For those who, like you, clearly aren't suited to Grammar school, the option to leave and go to a Comprehensive school is available. Why didn't you do that?