Labour And Lib Dems 'would Fight Grammar School Plans'

[mikey4444]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37002495

I'm surprised that these new plans by Mrs May hasn't been mentioned on AB before. For me, I think Grammar Schools should remain in the 1960's.

[ToraToraTora]

"The point I am making is that a proper education should be available to everyone, and not simply provided for the more able at the expense of the less. "

all schools are funded the same, by head of pupils

[andy-hughes]

TTT - //"The point I am making is that a proper education should be available to everyone, and not simply provided for the more able at the expense of the less. "

all schools are funded the same, by head of pupils //

And if you cram an elitist selective school to bursting point using a selection system to cream off the most able pupils, it will receive more money than a school that is not full to capacity because it is a second, or even third choice, and will spiral down in terms of resources and results accordingly.

That is the downside of 'parent power' (excuse me while I laugh out loud) - parents have no power to select schools, only to reject them.

[ToraToraTora]

but you accept the funding is per head?

[andy-hughes]

TTT - //but you accept the funding is per head? //

For state schools - I believe so, for independent schools, obviously not, but that side does not pretend not to be elitist, it has the courage of its convictions - you get the education your parents can pay for.

I just happen to think everyone should have that level of education, which we all can pay for.

Only the government stops that from happening.

[naomi24]

Andy-hughes, a Grammar School education isn’t elitist. It simply offers a standard of education suitable to its students' abilities - for example the opportunity to study, in an academic environment, multiple languages, separate sciences, literature at a higher level, and complex mathematics – and that clearly wouldn’t suit everyone. As I said earlier, opposition to Grammar schools carries with it a lot of inverted snobbery.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //Andy-hughes, a Grammar School education isn’t elitist.//

If you populate a school with a selection process, then you are running an elitist system.

The type and level of education offered is not the point - the elitism is in place before a pupil steps through the gate.

[jim360]

I don't have a problem with Grammar Schools in practice because, quite simply, there just isn't a valid replacement at the moment that will be able to maintain the same sorts of standard in academic education. On the other hand, the principle that everybody's life and career path should be largely determined at the age of 11 or 12 is surely something we should be rejecting. I'm sure we all know examples of people who didn't quite get engaged with education properly until long after arriving at whatever High school it was they went to -- or, equivalently, people who were incredibly bright to start with but then sort of fizzled out for some reason later on. Whatever system we have in place for education, it has to be able to easily cope with these sorts of children, who are hardly uncommon. One such example might be a friend of mine,who would probably have, by his own admission, fallen under TTT's definition of "disruptive scum" -- but then got his act together around about the time of A-levels (perhaps helped by being reasonably intelligent anyway), went on to university, and is now working towards a PhD. I don't think that this would have been realised when he was arriving at High School, although it's hard to know -- but surely any system that effectively brands people for life based on how they are at 11 is broken in principle. Yes, there's always the opportunity for late switching back and forth (eg add a 13+ and a 15+ r something) but such upheavals in life, school, friends etc are also disruptive.

Seems to me, therefore, that we should be working as hard as possible to make grammar schools essentially redundant -- but, in the meantime, getting rid of them is self-defeating as long as the standards provided there simply aren't so readily available in the rest of the education system.

However, I do wonder if this entire argument is a little too stuck in the past anyway. The educational establishments of the future may be far more oriented towards being online as opposed to in some fixed building, where (if people can organise it properly, at least) the sort of educational standards that are available in the past only to a select few can now be shared across the world to thousands at a time, and then again. We're still some way away from this, but perhaps we shouldn't be so religiously adherent to the idea that some sort of physical building to host a school is essential.

[andy-hughes]

Interesting points jim - as always.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, the type and level of education is precisely the point. It isn't something that is offered by Comprehensive schools as a matter of course.

[mikey4444]

All supporters of Grammar Schools....Mrs May is said to be in favour of bringing back selection, to improve social mobility. But in the 1960's, when Grammar Schools were around, only a tiny percentage of pupils from non-Grammar Schools went to College.

Now that figure is much, much higher, and the reason for that is the Comps. have an expectation that their pupils will have a good chance of a College education, just like the Grammars. Long gone are the days that secondary education was merely there to produce brickies, plumbers, Nurses and typists.

If the Tories want to bring back selection at age 10-11, so be it, but don't be fooled by this vacuous reason of theirs that it will introduce the magic touch for "social mobility"....it didn't in the 60's and it won't now.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, the type and level of education is precisely the point. It isn't something that is offered by Comprehensive schools as a matter of course. //

I think the elitism of a selection process of children is the point - especially children who are not formed enough for sound judgements about their education direction to be made.

[naomi24]

Mikey, what you call ‘a good chance of a College education, just like the Grammars’, is unfortunately not ‘just like the ‘Grammars’. Lofty sounding 'Qualifications' are available to practically anyone now but many of the courses on offer are simply ludicrous and not worth a proverbial 'light' in the real world.

[naomi24]

Andy-hughes, selection into Grammar school isn’t governed by elitism – it’s governed by academic ability.

[Baldric]

As an Old Alfredian, I never saw it as elitist, it was just School, just without a few of the guys previous Schools, it taught me how to stand on my own two feet and how to find out things for myself, did me no harm at all, and was a good preparation for the way my life turned out.

[shaneystar2]

Quite so Baldric .I went to a grammar school .
An all girls school from all walks of life .
In no way was it elitist and I had a good education from brilliant teachers and it formed a good fountain for how I have led my life since and what I did learn made me want to learn more .I made lifelong friends as well.

[shaneystar2]

They obviously didn't teach me how to spell....lol
That should be foundation ..not fountain.

[jim360]

Or how to use full stops?

But anyway. If it isn't too trite to quote my own mother: "Grammar schools are great. It's what happens to the rest of the children that's the problem."

[grumpy01]

I definitely agree that grammar schools should be a thing of the past.I passed the 11 plus and went to a grammar school but hated pretty much every minute of it.My son however went to our local comprehensive got his 5GCSE's at A to C studied for A levels at the local 6th form college and progressed to university gaining a degree and afterwards a doctorate.He now works as a research scientist in the U.S..So Mrs may don't bring back grammar schools it would be a retrograde step.

[ToraToraTora]

so your boy did good despite the system so everyone must suffer, right oh!

[Togo]

So just like in real life, the ones who couldn't cope with a bit of pressure and a requirement to get it done, or the ones who weren't good enough in the first place, get to hug each other and have a "there that told em" moment. If ever there was a demonstration that showed why Grammar Schools were required, it is right here in this thread.