Are people in Iraq really better off?

[newtron]

This question was inpired from some of the answers in the "war in Iraq" question below.  It's easy for us to say "They're better off now because they are free... blah blah blah", but are they really?  A person in Iraq would make this judgement based on how his/her life has changed.  Is the economy better than it was?  Are there more jobs available?  Are people finding it easier to feed their families?  I admit that I am not the most informed peron, so I am relying on you well informed ABers.  Thanks.

[surfer mike]

dunno, probably it needs time before new investment etc filters through to the economy, but don't pay too much attention to the media's picture of the country, they focus perhaps understandably on the suicide terrorist bombs, but these occur in small parts of the country, mainly in baghdad and small parts of the south of the country..the media never report on the good news and there is plenty going on elsewhere..its a bit like the northern ireland situation, where you get a impression from the media that the whole country is/was in turmoil.

As with every issue history not individual's like you and me, will be the final judge.

[january_bug]

I very much agree with surfer mike's first line, and actually with his whole post.  (Except that individuals doesn't need an apostrophe! :-p) 

Now is not the time to ask this question.  We need to reflect in 10 years time.  It's only recently been possible to truly understand the effect of the Berlin Wall coming down, 15 (?) years on!

The answer at the moment, like any school essay or university exam, or public debate, is that some people are better off, others worse.  In the long run, that balance will change, and then of course other factors will begin to play their part. 

For now - there is no definitve answer.  Certainly no ABer can come down on one side of the fence or the other with any decent reliability because they are not Iraqis (my apologies to any Iraqi users!). 

[newtron]

I agree that time will tell, but I'm sure many  Iraqis are expecting life to improve vastly and quickly, and if it doen't, then what?  It's all America's fault!!  Those damn Americans!! 

[january_bug]

Rather like post 1997 and the impattience with New Labour?! (Who by now have had long enough to make changes, so I don't suggest that "wait and see" applies to them anymore!!!)

[ianess]

newtron.......don't you follow the news?
Surely everyone knows by now that it's all the fault of those nasty Iranians.  Bush and Blair will already be hatching plans to "liberate" Iran from tyranny and injustice.   Isn't democracy wonderful when you only command a minimal support among your own electorate and yet end up with dictatorial powers?
Just as well we've got God on our side.

[jno]

the Shia, previously suppressed, are now in power; the Sunni, now out of power are worse off but - allegedly - now being trained by their Sunni brethren in Iran to kill as many of the new boys as possible. I'm not clear whether the violence now is worse than the suppression was before (no trustworthy figures for the latter, as far as I know) but it's probably fair to say that overall things are no better. A shame the Americans didn't plan for peace as assiduously as they planned for war; but their main hope, after all, is that the Shia will let them have access to oil. But that too is now highly uncertain in the continuing insurgency.

[foxy.fagin]

STOP all this high brow theorising please. What do we know apart from what the media and various 'intellectuals'  (non-iraqi in all probability) tell us - that's all we know, unless, of course, one of the postees is an Iraqi in Iraq. They are the ones who can answer such a ?.

[jno]

much as I appreciate your common-sense answer fagin, I'm not sure you'd get a definitive answer even from Iraqis, simply because life has got better for some and worse for others. Some people will find their co-religionists in the ascendant, others won't. Some will be doing well out of big reconstruction contracts, others will hear car bombs going off. Let's face it, people can't even agree when you ask them if life in Britain is getting better!

[foxy.fagin]

Oh I completely agree jno, but if the ? was asked re Britain within in Britain people have something to weigh life and what it entails against. Iraqis in Iraq similarly. Doubtless opinions would differ with certain better off, others worse off - that's life I guess but it's those people in a same land who can answer the ? the most legitimately and genuinely, I think.

[january_bug]

Cripes guys - I said all this in my second post, and I was only echoing/copying surfer mike in his first answer!!!!!  jno - don't go chipping your nail varnish with all the exces typing when others have done it for you!!  Ditto foxy! :-p :-)

[jno]

what you have to understand bug is that it's a lot more authoritative when it comes from foxy.fagin and me, as we have age and wisdom on our side

[foxy.fagin]

jno, I cannot stop laughing, even woken Beethoven up! I read bug's post but couldn't think how to answer so I just wandered off elsewhere.
Lovely!! What d'you reckon bug?

[january_bug]

Nothing like a good patronise first thing in the morning is there jno!?! :-p

Now be a good little boy and run along and do something constructive!

foxy - say hello to Beethoven for me!  And look out for another postcard soon!  :-)

[january_bug]

Oooops - and Bernard too obviously - didn't mean to be rude! *blushes*

[Zen]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3 19160.ece

[Hermia]

An Iraqi friend of mine says life is bliss there compared to what it was before. He and his family went absolutely mad with joy when Saddam's statue was torn down. He is a doctor and is now passionate about doing everything he can to help his country rebuild itself. But obviously other Iraqi's may not share his opinion.

[foxy.fagin]

That was an informative reply, Hermia. Thankyou.

[newtron]

Yeah, thanks Hermia.  That's the sort of answer I was looking for - an opinion from the inside.

[surfer mike]

yes hermia good informative post, btw if even if 99% of all iraqis shared the opinion of your friend it would make no difference to the clear agenda of elements of the anti war movement, now if the old soviet union had still existed and had liberated/invaded iraq rather than america and britain it would have been a different story, no hundreds of thousands on the streets then..when saddam originally invaded kuwait, there was hardly a murmour by the usual megaphone voices of the far left..but when the usa and its allies began military action to expel him, there was outcry..

[jno]

I think that's as it should be, surfer mike. When I offer advice on relationships in the B&S section, it's often to the effect that you can't change other people's behaviour, only your own. I think the same principle applies here. Whatever westerners said about Saddam's invasion of Kuwait (and as I remember it there was a fair amount of protest) would have had no effect on Saddam's behaviour. What they said about their own governments' behaviour would have had to be taken into account, so they were right to say it. This is independent of whether you agree with their opinion or not.

Incidentally, as I recall, the old Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. The USA, aiming to block Soviet expansionism, responded by providing arming and training for Afghan guerrillas... one of whom was Osama bin Laden. I think, without being sarcastic, this illustrates the real dangers of interfering in other nations' affairs.