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White Elderly Posh Judge, Now Accused Of Not Understanding Humans.
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What does this woman and others want, the inquiry judge to be selected from a resident of those flats?
What does this woman and others want, the inquiry judge to be selected from a resident of those flats?
Answers
It always seems strange (though not unexpected) that black people say that white people cannot possibly understand their problems. Imagine this then: the victims of a tragedy are predominantl
11:55 Tue 04th Jul 2017
Incidentally, the other thing to note is that (a) the judge ended up presiding over the case anyway in the Trump University affair (which was settled last year, Trump paying $25 million to end the case), and (b) it was noted that in fact Curiel (the judge in question) was *very* fair, sticking to the letter of the law and occasionally ruling in Trump's favour, see eg here: http://
So, again, it turns out that Trump's concerns were completely misplaced. Because of course they were. The US legal system carries some issues with judges anyway, as they are often elected rather than appointed (so that politics does sometimes play a part). But the race of a judge is not an issue, and should never be made to be one.
Again, then, Trump was utterly, utterly wrong. And so is Lammy.
So, again, it turns out that Trump's concerns were completely misplaced. Because of course they were. The US legal system carries some issues with judges anyway, as they are often elected rather than appointed (so that politics does sometimes play a part). But the race of a judge is not an issue, and should never be made to be one.
Again, then, Trump was utterly, utterly wrong. And so is Lammy.
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This Judge has a long history of unraveling convoluted contract law problems, he is ideally suited to this case.
He is not 'high profile', in fact he is scarcely known outside legal circles. His lack of 'profile' may be what is worrying some people.
But the central problem in this case will be unraveling the complex web of contracts and sub contracts that surround the 'cladding and fire safety issue', over 20 separate companies are involved and each will be trying to wriggle out of any blame and to protect their @rse !
There are few if any people better suited to this job than Sir Martin Moore-Bick. Sorting out this type of highly complex situation is what he has done superbly for most of his life!
This Judge has a long history of unraveling convoluted contract law problems, he is ideally suited to this case.
He is not 'high profile', in fact he is scarcely known outside legal circles. His lack of 'profile' may be what is worrying some people.
But the central problem in this case will be unraveling the complex web of contracts and sub contracts that surround the 'cladding and fire safety issue', over 20 separate companies are involved and each will be trying to wriggle out of any blame and to protect their @rse !
There are few if any people better suited to this job than Sir Martin Moore-Bick. Sorting out this type of highly complex situation is what he has done superbly for most of his life!
Jim, it wasn’t about the litigants. It was about Trump’s stance on illegal immigration, but none of that has any bearing whatsoever on this thread. The people affected by the fire came from all sorts of backgrounds and in all hues. The objection here is simply that this man is white and is perceived to be ‘posh’. It’s a complete nonsense – but anything to stir up trouble. These people create and exacerbate racism and social divide, and for that they should be thoroughly ashamed - and so should their supporters.
> But this Judge has to have the confidence of the residents
How many of them? This MP gained 42.2% of the vote on a 63.8% turnout (the same at this precision as her Tory opponent, who she beat by 20 votes). So if the MP has the "confidence" of 26.9% of the residents, what degree of "confidence" should the judge have.
The sad, really sad, truth in this case is that a few mouthy people, including David Lammy and Emma Dent Coad, are jumping on a racist, populist agenda that stirs up hatred and resentment where none should exist.
Confidence should come from actions, not from colour of skin or gender.
How many of them? This MP gained 42.2% of the vote on a 63.8% turnout (the same at this precision as her Tory opponent, who she beat by 20 votes). So if the MP has the "confidence" of 26.9% of the residents, what degree of "confidence" should the judge have.
The sad, really sad, truth in this case is that a few mouthy people, including David Lammy and Emma Dent Coad, are jumping on a racist, populist agenda that stirs up hatred and resentment where none should exist.
Confidence should come from actions, not from colour of skin or gender.
"But this Judge has to have the confidence of the residents, and I am not sure that he does at the moment."
So I'll ask as well, Mikey: just who do you think will inspire the confidence of the residents. They are mainly poor, mainly non-white and probably mainly (though not necessarily exclusively) educated to a fairly low level. Judges, in the main, are mainly well-off, mainly (though not exclusively) white, and exclusively educated to a high level. So we're back to the issue "You can't understand what my problems are (so I've no confidence in you)"
It's unlikely that any judge (or any other person with the capabilities to handle such an enquiry) will enjoy the confidence of the residents.
So I'll ask as well, Mikey: just who do you think will inspire the confidence of the residents. They are mainly poor, mainly non-white and probably mainly (though not necessarily exclusively) educated to a fairly low level. Judges, in the main, are mainly well-off, mainly (though not exclusively) white, and exclusively educated to a high level. So we're back to the issue "You can't understand what my problems are (so I've no confidence in you)"
It's unlikely that any judge (or any other person with the capabilities to handle such an enquiry) will enjoy the confidence of the residents.
Sadly I think there are such strong feelings, feelings of 'us and them', and so many racist and political opportunists stirring things up that i don't think the enquiry will succeed. I can see its terms of reference being changed as time goes on and its personnel changed, and the findings at each stage will be dismissed by those who have already made up their minds.
I know emotions are running high but I do not understnd why police are getting so much criticism over numbers. The extent of subletting hasn't helped andit looks as if the fire was so intense that DNA traces can't always be found. Maybe the police should take some protestors up there.
I know emotions are running high but I do not understnd why police are getting so much criticism over numbers. The extent of subletting hasn't helped andit looks as if the fire was so intense that DNA traces can't always be found. Maybe the police should take some protestors up there.
Don't really know FF....she was called Dent Ward here in WIKI....Dent being a Christian name apparently, She is from a Spanish background :::
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Her Tory predecessor, also had an interesting previous name........Elected as Victoria Borwick in 2015, and defeated in 2017 as Lady Borwick.
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Her Tory predecessor, also had an interesting previous name........Elected as Victoria Borwick in 2015, and defeated in 2017 as Lady Borwick.
FF...........it was interesting reading the comments of residents that attended last night's meeting in Olympia. They seem somewhat unwilling to accept that there may be nothing left of their relatives to identify, as they would most likely have been well and truly incinerated.
Desperately sad situation....Its easy to judge these people, but I am not sure what I would feel in similar circumstances, if my family had been involved.
Desperately sad situation....Its easy to judge these people, but I am not sure what I would feel in similar circumstances, if my family had been involved.
In the immediate aftermath of the fire lots of stories came out about how residents had protested for many years about the poor fire safety conditions of the flat and had been largely ignored. It's not difficult to find written records of this from before the fire -- although of course, like most people, I knew nothing about this at the time (why should I?).
In those circumstances it's going to be very difficult indeed to secure the confidence of the residents and those directly affected by this fire in any sort of enquiry. Why should they trust people who come from the same sort of background as those who refused to listen before, for years and years and years? In that sense, I understand their feelings, because how can they feel anything other than a seething and righteous anger and loss of faith in the official process and in anyone who represents that process?
I still hold that objectively it's a nonsense, but I suspect that many people here would share those feelings subjectively, to some extent at least, if in the same position as Grenfell ex-residents.
The racial aspect of that criticism still bothers and saddens me, but I'm suggesting that it's a front for the real issue: that people will struggle to trust anyone who comes from the system that appears to have let them down in such a tragic way.
It's a wider issue than the fire and the inquiry, anyway. Perceptions are a powerful thing and very difficult to shake off. I don't think there's much point in sacking the appointed judge, and replacing him with someone more acceptable to the community, because (a) who even is that, and (b) the best thing to challenge the perception is for the appointed judge to deliver an honest, open, and correct verdict despite what people thought he might do.
I haven't seen what mikey said in response to the question put to him, but that's *my* answer anyway. Anger at being ignored for so long is very difficult to set aside, and any sense that being (largely) ignored is just going to continue will provoke yet more anger and distrust.
In those circumstances it's going to be very difficult indeed to secure the confidence of the residents and those directly affected by this fire in any sort of enquiry. Why should they trust people who come from the same sort of background as those who refused to listen before, for years and years and years? In that sense, I understand their feelings, because how can they feel anything other than a seething and righteous anger and loss of faith in the official process and in anyone who represents that process?
I still hold that objectively it's a nonsense, but I suspect that many people here would share those feelings subjectively, to some extent at least, if in the same position as Grenfell ex-residents.
The racial aspect of that criticism still bothers and saddens me, but I'm suggesting that it's a front for the real issue: that people will struggle to trust anyone who comes from the system that appears to have let them down in such a tragic way.
It's a wider issue than the fire and the inquiry, anyway. Perceptions are a powerful thing and very difficult to shake off. I don't think there's much point in sacking the appointed judge, and replacing him with someone more acceptable to the community, because (a) who even is that, and (b) the best thing to challenge the perception is for the appointed judge to deliver an honest, open, and correct verdict despite what people thought he might do.
I haven't seen what mikey said in response to the question put to him, but that's *my* answer anyway. Anger at being ignored for so long is very difficult to set aside, and any sense that being (largely) ignored is just going to continue will provoke yet more anger and distrust.
No answers from Mikey then.
fiction-factory, having read up a bit on her, I can’t find reference to the origin of her name, but her background, life experience, and education would suggest that she’s as far flung, socially, from the victims as Sir Martin Moore-Bick. She //complained that Sir Martin would not be able to show 'empathy' for those caught up in the disaster because he did not share their background.// but neither does she, so how she reconciles the glaring inconsistency in her claim is anyone’s guess. One could be forgiven for thinking this is someone who, like David Lammy and many other Labourites, is determined to make waves by using this disaster to her own political ends. What a disingenuous bunch they are!
fiction-factory, having read up a bit on her, I can’t find reference to the origin of her name, but her background, life experience, and education would suggest that she’s as far flung, socially, from the victims as Sir Martin Moore-Bick. She //complained that Sir Martin would not be able to show 'empathy' for those caught up in the disaster because he did not share their background.// but neither does she, so how she reconciles the glaring inconsistency in her claim is anyone’s guess. One could be forgiven for thinking this is someone who, like David Lammy and many other Labourites, is determined to make waves by using this disaster to her own political ends. What a disingenuous bunch they are!
^ I agree 100% Jim. But I too can't see how anyone could fit the criteria of having the confidence of the residents and also have the depth of knowledge to sort out the fire safety/cladding/building regulation/ contract problems. It is those problems that this enquiry is going to confront. There are also going to be full inquests on each of the victims that will sort out the other more personal problems.
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