What Is Spain Afraid Of?

[ToraToraTora]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41331152
Why not organise a proper referendum like we had in Scotland and put the matter to bed?

[youngmafbog]

I'm not sure it would put it to bed. The Catalonia issue is not quite the same as the Scotland/UK one.

[bhg481]

I love the way you say "Put the matter to bed" - just like Nichola Sturgeon's and the Remoaners version of "Put the matter to bed".

[ludwig]

// Why not organise a proper referendum like we had in Scotland and put the matter to bed? //

Because the chances are they'd vote for independence, and Spain don't want that.

[New Judge]

Catalonia is one of the richest, most prosperous and industrialised regions of Spain. The fear that the Spanish government have of its independence is that they will lose the “cash cow” that props up the less prosperous parts of the country and helps them deal with their huge unemployment problems. This has always been a problem for Spain (among the worst in Europe) peaking in recent years at about 27% in 2013 but now down to “only” about 18%.

It’s rather like London and the South East of England seeking independence from the UK.

[ichkeria]

Confucius he say:
only hold a referendum - assuming you care enough about the outcome - you think you can win, either through sweet-talk (Cameron in Scotland), deluded bravado (Cameron and the EU), foul means (Putin in Crimea and probably Erdogan in Turkey)
Etc etc
Plainly Catalunia would vote for independence and Spain doesn't want that and they are quite right not to want it.

[New Judge]

“only hold a referendum - assuming you care enough about the outcome - you think you can win”

I’m always intrigued at the notion that a government should “win” a referendum. The idea is to put a question to the electorate that the government thinks is important enough for them to directly decide. Whilst the government may hold a view, the winners are those who voted in the majority. There will never be objective referendums anywhere whilst governments put questions to the electorate only when they are not fearful that the “wrong” answer may be returned.

[Jackdaw33]

NJ is correct as usual. There is no comparison between Catalonia and Scotland. The former makes a massive contribution to the Spanish economy whilst the latter merely passes the begging bowl around the rest of the UK from time to time.

[ToraToraTora]

fair enough judge, poor old Dave must have been pretty sure remain would win the 2016 vote!

[jim360]

When was the last time a referendum actually put the matter in question to bed though?

[ichkeria]

" The idea is to put a question to the electorate that the government thinks is important enough for them to directly decide. "

That's the theory. In practice, however ...
You are arguing against yourself. You correctly said that it was not in Spain's interests to hold a referendum. But it IS an important issue. But one they'd probably lose, ergo no referendum. No matter any nonsense about "importance"

[ichkeria]

Sorry to witter on, but consider Northern Ireland.
A border poll was held there years ago, when the world and his wife and mistress knew it was a stone-cold shoo-in for the status quo.
However, now there will only be a referendum allegedly when it is apparent that it would go the other way!

[ToraToraTora]

jim: June 23rd 2016

[Stan-Marsh]

The people of Scotland are living in poverty, unlike those in Catalonia. The SNP has spent millions building houses for refugees on the Isle of Arran, a paradise holiday island that no one else can afford to live on.

Nicola passed the begging bowl around the rest of the UK last year and ended up paying £50 million for some 40 year old trains, the English company said they were in good condition, but I'm not so sure.

We're now grateful for anything we can get and hope the rest of the UK doesn't abandon us.

[zebo]

Stan, when do you get the opportunity to vote NS out? Who would you like to see in her place?

[jim360]

Depends on how you define "to bed". As you keep reminding us, plenty of people aren't happy at the result and are doing their level best to overturn it, or at least to find ways of accepting the result without actually doing anything about it.

Referenda never settle the question posed. If anything, they make more people ask it rather than less.

But for the case in question, it's fairly clear that Spain as a whole has a lot to lose if the Catalan region secedes.

[Jackdaw33]

Precisely. Let's turn things upside down and imagine England wanted to secede from the UK. I don't think Wales, Scotland and NI would be very keen.

[ToraToraTora]

the vote was taken and the government are implementing the result, that's as "to bed" as you can get.

[Old_Geezer]

"Catalans argue they pay more into the national budget than they get back." But when one is a nation, that is how it works. Those areas presently fortunate to be prosperous, help those less well off. A nation loses strength if is splits up because of this. Split off because you are rich and later find none of those you left behind wish to help when you get threatened.