Should Gender Be Included In The Census?

[naomi24]

//The Office for National Statistics (ONS) has undertaken research as to whether the 2021 census should ask questions about people’s gender identity as well as their biological sex.
This follows protests that asking about people’s gender is discriminatory.

If the proposals go ahead, the change would leave the Government without accurate data on the number of men and women officially living in the country.

An online self-completion survey found that 0.8 per cent of approximately 10,000 respondents had transgender identities and that around half of this population – or 40 individuals – had undergone gender reassignment surgery.//

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/census-gender-transgender-non-binary-concerns-women-written-out-of-existence-germaine-greer-a7988991.html

I’ve never considered myself to be a feminist particularly, but I’m with them on this one. It seems the sensibilities of a very few are taking precedence over common sense. What say you?

[naomi24]

Thanks Pixie.

[jim360]

All I'm saying is that maybe you ought to read into the topic a little more *before* dismissing it as rubbish, rather than afterwards (if at all).

[naomi24]

Jim, Which topic do you think I ought to read more about? Third wave feminism, cisgenderism, transgenderism - or something else?

[vetuste_ennemi]

//All I'm saying is that maybe you ought to read into the topic a little more ...//

Then please produce the "evidence", Jim, for the nonsense that biological sex and gender are independent of each other.

No, I don't want a paper written by twelve Ph(oney)Ds from the Gender Studies department at Keele (why do I always think of Keele?). Let's try something from the biology department written by real scientists.

[jim360]

For example, once you accept the existence, or at least the need to discuss transgender people, then the term "cisgender" or something like it naturally arises as a means of distinguishing people whose gender identity and sex match from those who don't without being offensive. You could stick with "real" or "normal" if you like, and see how far that gets you in a face-to-face discussion without being slapped.

Then the "third-wave feminism" etc emerges because, you know, feminism like everything else goes in phases. It is, as I say, something of an oversimplification, but loosely speaking:

"first-wave" = voting rights, property rights, legal issues etc.
"second-wave" = a broader search for equality, eg equal pay and equal family rights and roles, etc.
"third-wave" = pretty much everything since then, sort of.

But if you'd ever actually read into all this then you'd know that already.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I don't mind something from the psychology department which explains why some people think they're women when they're not.

[pixie374]

I'm not sure that's even relevant, Jim. It's not even always easy being female. The idea that after 20 or so years a man can have his bits mutilated and turn into one... is frankly insulting.

[pixie374]

It's just perception, v-e. The same way there are 5 stone anorexic people who "self-identify" as fat. You offer them mental health care, not liposuction.

[jim360]

Well, pixie, I'm sorry you are insulted, but I don't know if there's anything I can do about that.

v-e, you could start with this one:

http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA?code=aace-site

[pixie374]

Just some honesty is fine... a person can change to intersex, if they really want to. It literally can't be any more than that.

[naomi24]

Jim, And there we have it. “Real” or “normal” are no longer acceptable. “Real” and “normal” have to be slotted into a manufactured category because it makes those who are none of the above feel better about themselves. So slap me.

As for reading more about it, I’m with V-E at 17:31 – and for the record I agree with Pixie at 17:33. It is insulting.

[jim360]

Oh dear. Well, be insulted then.

[pixie374]

Is it only minorities that deserve respecting then? I just think it's a shockingly primitive way to treat a mental health condition. And the surrounding lies about what is or isn't achievable don't help anybody.

[Spicerack]

//But in the long run I don't see why women need to view transgender people as in any sense threatening -- //

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/17/woman-injured-as-feminists-and-transgender-groups-fight-at-speakers-corner-6933812/

[pixie374]

They are too different from us to be any kind of threat. I don't think that's the right word.

[Mamyalynne]

Anyone is threatening if they are being violent, gender doesn't come into that - but you knew that already.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Interesting. This is what your link gives me, Jim:

"Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity

Aruna Saraswat1, Jamie Weinand2, Joshua Safer1, 3
1 Section of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Nutrition, Boston Medical Center, Boston University School of Medicine
2 Boston University School of Medicine
Objective: To review current literature that supports a biologic basis of gender identity.

Methods: A traditional literature review.

Results: Evidence that there is a biologic basis for gender identity primarily involves (1) data on gender identity in patients with disorders of sex development (DSDs, also known as differences of sex development) along with (2) neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity.

Conclusions: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity."

A funnily worded conclusion from a scientific study which on a surface reading doesn't support your case at all.

"...strong support in the literature"?

[vetuste_ennemi]

I was too hasty, they're looking ta other people's papers.

Scrub the last two paragraphs.

[Kromovaracun]

People are at cross purposes here because the meaning of the word "gender" has changed. It no longer means simply one's biological sex. It now means something more social about how you interact with society (i.e. the closest category to it you would find on the census paper would probably be "religion" but that's not an apt comparison).

I'm not really a good person to explain it because it really isn't a topic I feel very interested in, but for present purposes it's probably worth mentioning that this dispute about what a gender even is, is a fundamental part of the disagreement here.

[pixie374]

I've said that before, kromo. When I did psychology around 20 years ago, "sex" and "gender" had different meanings. I think "gender" is used more now, just because it sounds a bit politer. But seems to cause a lot of confusion.