Body & Soul2 mins ago
Project Fear Part 16967.8 - Perlease
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Ok that's all the foreign vehicles barred from the UK too, that's about 40/1, who's going to hurt more? NEXT!
Ok that's all the foreign vehicles barred from the UK too, that's about 40/1, who's going to hurt more? NEXT!
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Your comments increasingly demonstrate that you have absolutely zero understanding of Brexit. This doesn't ban vehicles, it's simply returning things to how they were before the EU. Back in the day, an International Driving Licence was required to drive in European countries, just as it is now for driving in (for example) the US.
They bar our drivers we bar theirs, simples. An international driving licence has never ever been needed here or in the EU. Long before the evil empire we had reciprocal arrangements with other nations. Eg US licence is valid here and GB licence is valid there. If they want to play silly then we'll make all thier drivers including truckers illegal too.
As it happens, the civil servant who is directly responsible for this aspect of Brexit is a personal friend of mine. He voted to leave.
He's a trained lawyer. Last time we went out for dinner, he and I spent half an hour or so discussing this precise point. (Yes, we're nerds and need to get a life)
I offer the following not as argument, but as clarification, and perhaps to add a very small contribution to why we can't 'Just leave' as many appear to advocate.
The driver's licence is a legal document that shows an individual has reached the standard required in the country where it is applicable.
Just as a national driving licence issued in Laos does not permit the bearer to drive legally in the UK; a UK driver's licence has no meaning in Germany, except insofar as the EU has a common agreement that licences issued in one member state apply to all other member states.
Once we leave, there is no requirement on Germany's legislature to accept a UK national driver's licence (nor is there any requirement on the UK government to accept licences issued in France, Germany or any other EU country).
Furthermore, if I am driving in rural Spain and a local policeman takes a dislike to me and asks to see my licence, will he accept it as valid (irrespective of the formal legal position)?
The answer to that one depends on how well the official legal position is understood by the various authorities in different countries.
This (he said) is one tiny aspect of the much larger Brexit process. Imagine this kind of detail multiplied thousands of times, and you get to have a small inkling of the complexity of the UK's withdrawal from the EU.
Youcan call it project fear if you like. It makes no difference to the legality (or otherwise) of the situation
Those who assert that we should 'Just leave' have absolutely no concept of how a no-deal, cliff-edge departure would affect their daily lives.
The fact that such calls are commonplace shows the depth of the mendacity of the politicians who call for a simple, no-deal exit. (in my opinion)
He's a trained lawyer. Last time we went out for dinner, he and I spent half an hour or so discussing this precise point. (Yes, we're nerds and need to get a life)
I offer the following not as argument, but as clarification, and perhaps to add a very small contribution to why we can't 'Just leave' as many appear to advocate.
The driver's licence is a legal document that shows an individual has reached the standard required in the country where it is applicable.
Just as a national driving licence issued in Laos does not permit the bearer to drive legally in the UK; a UK driver's licence has no meaning in Germany, except insofar as the EU has a common agreement that licences issued in one member state apply to all other member states.
Once we leave, there is no requirement on Germany's legislature to accept a UK national driver's licence (nor is there any requirement on the UK government to accept licences issued in France, Germany or any other EU country).
Furthermore, if I am driving in rural Spain and a local policeman takes a dislike to me and asks to see my licence, will he accept it as valid (irrespective of the formal legal position)?
The answer to that one depends on how well the official legal position is understood by the various authorities in different countries.
This (he said) is one tiny aspect of the much larger Brexit process. Imagine this kind of detail multiplied thousands of times, and you get to have a small inkling of the complexity of the UK's withdrawal from the EU.
Youcan call it project fear if you like. It makes no difference to the legality (or otherwise) of the situation
Those who assert that we should 'Just leave' have absolutely no concept of how a no-deal, cliff-edge departure would affect their daily lives.
The fact that such calls are commonplace shows the depth of the mendacity of the politicians who call for a simple, no-deal exit. (in my opinion)
"Once we leave, there is no requirement on Germany's legislature to accept a UK national driver's licence (nor is there any requirement on the UK government to accept licences issued in France, Germany or any other EU country). " - and vice versa, hence they wont want that, hence project fear, NEXT!
You can look at this small detail and ignore it. Of course you can.
But unless this tiny aspect is discussed, negotiated, agreed, our lives will be ever so slightly poorer, as we have to jump through a few small hoops in order to drive in France.
No big deal, of course, except maybe to truckers and those who want to buy wine and cigarettes in Calais, or chocolate in Bruges.
It's just that this is one tiny detail among thousands of others. Multiply up all those tiny – almost insignificant – ways of making our lives poorer and our lives become much worse, unless we can work through a very large number of small details.
A key aspect of the Brexit negotiations is to avoid all those small incremental ways our lives could get poorer without an agreement.
But unless this tiny aspect is discussed, negotiated, agreed, our lives will be ever so slightly poorer, as we have to jump through a few small hoops in order to drive in France.
No big deal, of course, except maybe to truckers and those who want to buy wine and cigarettes in Calais, or chocolate in Bruges.
It's just that this is one tiny detail among thousands of others. Multiply up all those tiny – almost insignificant – ways of making our lives poorer and our lives become much worse, unless we can work through a very large number of small details.
A key aspect of the Brexit negotiations is to avoid all those small incremental ways our lives could get poorer without an agreement.
“Just as a national driving licence issued in Laos does not permit the bearer to drive legally in the UK; a UK driver's licence has no meaning in Germany, except insofar as the EU has a common agreement that licences issued in one member state apply to all other member states.”
Quite so. But the likely situation post-Brexit is not so straightforward as you suggest as there is no common requirement across Europe for International Driving Permits to be held. Travellers from the USA, for example, need an IDP if they want to drive in Austria, Greece, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Slovenia, and Spain. They do not need one to drive elsewhere in the EU.
If common sense prevails (not a given by any means when the European Project is in any way jeopardised) it would seem most prudent to maintain the status quo between the UK and the EU on this matter. Yes, before Brexit this (and a multitude of other matters) will need to be clarified. That’s what we pay civil servants for. But talk of a “cliff edge” is ludicrous. Both sides will have had upwards 33 months to prepare by Brexit day. But instead of concentrating on things that matter (such as passports, driving licences and customs arrangements) they spent more than six months arguing the toss over how much cash we would be charged for the privilege of leaving.
To be pragmatic, what do you think will happen on both sides of the Channel on 30-3-19 if no agreement is reached and suddenly IDPs are seen as a requirement for EU drivers to drive in the UK and vice versa? Do you see border staff in both locations checking drivers’ licences and turning them round if they do not have the correct documents? People need to get real. Your lawyer friend is obviously well versed with the legal niceties of Brexit. But he doesn’t seem to have much to say about reality. The UK and the EU need to crack on and plan for a “no deal” situation. They need to tell people what driving licences they will need, what the validity on their passport is required and a wealth of other things. Simply throwing one’s hands into the air and wailing that it is all too difficult is not an option because believe it or not life will go on (on both sides of the Channel) after Brexit. The UK’s membership of the EU is a mutually beneficial arrangement (just) and now that it is ending both sides need to sort out the practicalities instead of trying to scare the populace witless. That’s been tried once and it didn’t work.
Quite so. But the likely situation post-Brexit is not so straightforward as you suggest as there is no common requirement across Europe for International Driving Permits to be held. Travellers from the USA, for example, need an IDP if they want to drive in Austria, Greece, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Slovenia, and Spain. They do not need one to drive elsewhere in the EU.
If common sense prevails (not a given by any means when the European Project is in any way jeopardised) it would seem most prudent to maintain the status quo between the UK and the EU on this matter. Yes, before Brexit this (and a multitude of other matters) will need to be clarified. That’s what we pay civil servants for. But talk of a “cliff edge” is ludicrous. Both sides will have had upwards 33 months to prepare by Brexit day. But instead of concentrating on things that matter (such as passports, driving licences and customs arrangements) they spent more than six months arguing the toss over how much cash we would be charged for the privilege of leaving.
To be pragmatic, what do you think will happen on both sides of the Channel on 30-3-19 if no agreement is reached and suddenly IDPs are seen as a requirement for EU drivers to drive in the UK and vice versa? Do you see border staff in both locations checking drivers’ licences and turning them round if they do not have the correct documents? People need to get real. Your lawyer friend is obviously well versed with the legal niceties of Brexit. But he doesn’t seem to have much to say about reality. The UK and the EU need to crack on and plan for a “no deal” situation. They need to tell people what driving licences they will need, what the validity on their passport is required and a wealth of other things. Simply throwing one’s hands into the air and wailing that it is all too difficult is not an option because believe it or not life will go on (on both sides of the Channel) after Brexit. The UK’s membership of the EU is a mutually beneficial arrangement (just) and now that it is ending both sides need to sort out the practicalities instead of trying to scare the populace witless. That’s been tried once and it didn’t work.
NewJudge
You appear to suggest that anyone who wishes to cross the EU/UK border without a valid driver's licence will be allowed to do so, despite the fact that it would be illegal to drive without a valid licence.
Or perhaps I misunderstood your comment, "Do you see border staff in both locations checking drivers’ licences and turning them round if they do not have the correct documents? "
I would not be so bold as to suggest anyone should break the law, or that law enforcement officers on either side of the border will turn a blind eye to illegality, on the grounds that upholding the law will cause a bit of inconvenience.
I rather think you are the one who needs to 'get real'
You appear to suggest that anyone who wishes to cross the EU/UK border without a valid driver's licence will be allowed to do so, despite the fact that it would be illegal to drive without a valid licence.
Or perhaps I misunderstood your comment, "Do you see border staff in both locations checking drivers’ licences and turning them round if they do not have the correct documents? "
I would not be so bold as to suggest anyone should break the law, or that law enforcement officers on either side of the border will turn a blind eye to illegality, on the grounds that upholding the law will cause a bit of inconvenience.
I rather think you are the one who needs to 'get real'
Perhaps if we invalidate the driving licences of the Albanian, Roumanian, and Polish lorry drivers we will see less accidents on our motorways. And of course invalidating Irish driving licences immediately makes the Irish border "problem" less contentious and takes the "traveller" community problem to a different place...……..France for instance.
"Or perhaps I misunderstood your comment, "Do you see border staff in both locations checking drivers’ licences and turning them round if they do not have the correct documents? " "
Hopefully you didn't misunderstand. The question is straightforward. Notwithstanding any "deal" that may or may not be cobbled together (but let's assume for the sake of this argument that no deal is agreed) do you see, on 31st March 2019, all of the 50,000 plus drivers that cross each day being turned round if they don't have an IDP? Or do you see, even in the event of no overall deal being achieved, that some sort of pragmatic solution will be agreed. There are all sorts of threats (flights grounded, Chunnel trains halted, etc) aplenty. I don't gamble but I will bet than none of these things will happen, regardless of any deal or not.
Hopefully you didn't misunderstand. The question is straightforward. Notwithstanding any "deal" that may or may not be cobbled together (but let's assume for the sake of this argument that no deal is agreed) do you see, on 31st March 2019, all of the 50,000 plus drivers that cross each day being turned round if they don't have an IDP? Or do you see, even in the event of no overall deal being achieved, that some sort of pragmatic solution will be agreed. There are all sorts of threats (flights grounded, Chunnel trains halted, etc) aplenty. I don't gamble but I will bet than none of these things will happen, regardless of any deal or not.
NewJudge
I cannot foresee anyting. I just find it extraordinary that you, who have chosen a username referencing legal matters, appear to believe that law enforcement authorities – either in the UK, or Eire or France – would allow people to use their roads with no valid driving licence and no valid insurance (a consequence of having no valid licence) and no need to worry if, through negligence or accident, they kill another road user.
You really need to quit before your 'NewJudge' name is shown to be a total sham .
I do not wish to give an impression that I am either for or against Brexit. I just think that a no-deal Brexit is a fantasy.
The politicians claim – like you – that it will all be just fine. This small example reveals the flaws in their empty claims.
You appear to propose it will all be fine, because law-enforcement officials will permit law-breakers. and rogue drivers with no licence; no insurance and no responsibility to use roads on both sides of the border.
Rees-Mogg, Johnson and others say the Irish border is not a real problem, claiming it is easy to resolve. They ignore the legal obligations on the UK to abide by international treaties that there will be no hard border.
Drivers' licences and the Irish border show that the idea of a quick clean, no-deal Brexit is a fantasy, pedalled by self-serving politicians who prefer their own prosperity over that of the nation.
(My flight is delayed)
I cannot foresee anyting. I just find it extraordinary that you, who have chosen a username referencing legal matters, appear to believe that law enforcement authorities – either in the UK, or Eire or France – would allow people to use their roads with no valid driving licence and no valid insurance (a consequence of having no valid licence) and no need to worry if, through negligence or accident, they kill another road user.
You really need to quit before your 'NewJudge' name is shown to be a total sham .
I do not wish to give an impression that I am either for or against Brexit. I just think that a no-deal Brexit is a fantasy.
The politicians claim – like you – that it will all be just fine. This small example reveals the flaws in their empty claims.
You appear to propose it will all be fine, because law-enforcement officials will permit law-breakers. and rogue drivers with no licence; no insurance and no responsibility to use roads on both sides of the border.
Rees-Mogg, Johnson and others say the Irish border is not a real problem, claiming it is easy to resolve. They ignore the legal obligations on the UK to abide by international treaties that there will be no hard border.
Drivers' licences and the Irish border show that the idea of a quick clean, no-deal Brexit is a fantasy, pedalled by self-serving politicians who prefer their own prosperity over that of the nation.
(My flight is delayed)
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