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Bercow, Makes The Rules.........to Fit His Views
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Well I was hoping someone else would raise this but I guess it falls to me. Will remainiacs stop at nothing to thwart the referendum result?
Well I was hoping someone else would raise this but I guess it falls to me. Will remainiacs stop at nothing to thwart the referendum result?
Answers
//'How can unelected officials be better than someone who [we] can get shot of?// “
18:11 Thu 10th Jan 2019
I repeat: he did not break any rules. This is all about advice and precedent as you have just indicated.
Things are stacked against parliament when it comes to trying to avoid us crashing out of the EU: the PM hopes to blackmail MPs into voting for her deal to avoid it. Meanwhile some Brexit MPs are happy NOT to vote for it because as things stand we’ll leave anyway. And the government it seems can arbitrarily postpone, cancel or delay a vote for its own reasons. So this redresses the balance a bit
Things are stacked against parliament when it comes to trying to avoid us crashing out of the EU: the PM hopes to blackmail MPs into voting for her deal to avoid it. Meanwhile some Brexit MPs are happy NOT to vote for it because as things stand we’ll leave anyway. And the government it seems can arbitrarily postpone, cancel or delay a vote for its own reasons. So this redresses the balance a bit
What is does is remove the government from governing at their own time and pace. Gets pressurised to rush. They get dictated to when they have to do something which differs from accepted procedure. How is there going to be a whole new plan in days ? One can only go forward with what we already have. This decision is clearly on dodgy ground and allowed just to cause obstacles for the government.
Perspectives on something like this are bound to be coloured by our biases. I think I can happily accept I'd be more outraged about this if I weren't a Remainer. All the same, a few key points: firstly, as a Brexit MP made clear yesterday amongst the anger, John Bercow was the one who allowed an amendment to the Queen's Speech in 2013(? or 2014) that gave MPs a vote on whether or not to hold a referendum -- seen as a key driver in getting the actual referendum that Brexit supporters wanted by showing how much support there was in the House. That at least has to count for something.
Secondly, it's quite reasonable to see this as respecting Parliament over government, which is after all the Speaker's job. The government stopped proceedings on the vote and stopped Parliament from having any say over all this before Christmas, which led to outrage across the House and across all divides, and rightly so. In an effort to force its deal through, May's government has been using as many tricks and underhand tactics as it can think of -- not least in using the spectre of No Deal, and the narrowing window before March 29th, to try and frighten MPs into backing them. That is also unacceptable to both sides of the Brexit debate, is it not? Brexit supporters here aren't afraid of No Deal anyway, even if MPs are.
Before this amendment, and assuming that next Tuesday's vote sees the Withdrawal Agreement rejected, then government would have had three weeks to respond to that defeat, ie, until February 5th. That would just increase the time pressure still further, and it wouldn't entirely be surprising if May et al used that fact to try and force a second vote on the same deal. And, with essentially no more time to play with, would anyone have been surprised if Parliament had decided to accept the deal second time round, because No Deal was too terrifying a prospect for them? Now that there are only three days to play with instead, it gives everyone more time to come up with an alternative -- including, albeit very unlikely given the composition of the current House, a "managed No Deal".
I suspect that this argument too will be seen as self-serving. Nevertheless, I want to make to stress that there are least three sides in the debate currently, and this particular result primarily undermines the side that we *both* hate: that is, the government, under Theresa May, trying to force through an almost universally-rejected deal by running down the clock and running roughshod over Parliament.
Secondly, it's quite reasonable to see this as respecting Parliament over government, which is after all the Speaker's job. The government stopped proceedings on the vote and stopped Parliament from having any say over all this before Christmas, which led to outrage across the House and across all divides, and rightly so. In an effort to force its deal through, May's government has been using as many tricks and underhand tactics as it can think of -- not least in using the spectre of No Deal, and the narrowing window before March 29th, to try and frighten MPs into backing them. That is also unacceptable to both sides of the Brexit debate, is it not? Brexit supporters here aren't afraid of No Deal anyway, even if MPs are.
Before this amendment, and assuming that next Tuesday's vote sees the Withdrawal Agreement rejected, then government would have had three weeks to respond to that defeat, ie, until February 5th. That would just increase the time pressure still further, and it wouldn't entirely be surprising if May et al used that fact to try and force a second vote on the same deal. And, with essentially no more time to play with, would anyone have been surprised if Parliament had decided to accept the deal second time round, because No Deal was too terrifying a prospect for them? Now that there are only three days to play with instead, it gives everyone more time to come up with an alternative -- including, albeit very unlikely given the composition of the current House, a "managed No Deal".
I suspect that this argument too will be seen as self-serving. Nevertheless, I want to make to stress that there are least three sides in the debate currently, and this particular result primarily undermines the side that we *both* hate: that is, the government, under Theresa May, trying to force through an almost universally-rejected deal by running down the clock and running roughshod over Parliament.
// Will remainiacs stop at nothing to thwart the referendum result? //
When TTT said that I thought he was complaining about the consequences. All I'm saying is that, if anything, this serves to thwart Theresa May -- who is herself trying to thwart the referendum result, according to Brexiteers on AB.
I'm not familiar enough with the procedure to know how close to a rule it is. But without that procedure MPs would themselves have been hamstrung, and the chances of May's deal going through greater.
The more this goes on, the more I find the EU itself to be only the surface of the reason behind a "Leave" victory. Brexiteers want sovereignty back, but it is going to a body whose mechanisms and composition they clearly distrust. There has to be a case for looking at the role and composition of Parliament, if you are so dissatisfied with it.
When TTT said that I thought he was complaining about the consequences. All I'm saying is that, if anything, this serves to thwart Theresa May -- who is herself trying to thwart the referendum result, according to Brexiteers on AB.
I'm not familiar enough with the procedure to know how close to a rule it is. But without that procedure MPs would themselves have been hamstrung, and the chances of May's deal going through greater.
The more this goes on, the more I find the EU itself to be only the surface of the reason behind a "Leave" victory. Brexiteers want sovereignty back, but it is going to a body whose mechanisms and composition they clearly distrust. There has to be a case for looking at the role and composition of Parliament, if you are so dissatisfied with it.
apparently the sticker on his jam jar is his trouble and strife's !
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that's alright then!
https:/
that's alright then!
Jim, //I am interested why you think this in any way "stitches up" Brexit.//
I presume you’re responding to what was a general observation from me…. and that’s exactly what it was. A general observation. Brexiters are being stitched up in every way possible and by any Leaver who gets the opportunity.
I presume you’re responding to what was a general observation from me…. and that’s exactly what it was. A general observation. Brexiters are being stitched up in every way possible and by any Leaver who gets the opportunity.
I agree, Jim.
This sorry business needs bringing to a head as continual prevarication and delay, which has been its undoing from the start, does nobody any good. It is quite clear there is no mood in Parliament for Mrs May's "deal" and I would be absolutely disgusted if there was. Equally "No Deal" has now been made very difficult (though not impossible, especially as the supposed consequences such as queues of lorries at Dover because of delays at Calais have been announced as "disrespectful" by the Mayor of Calais).
All yesterday's vote did was to prevent Mrs May from bringing the same deal back to Parliament time and again and forces her to come up with "Plan B" in three days instead of three weeks following the rejection of her deal. Since she's had over two years to develop a Plan B and has singularly failed to do so I don't know how allowing her another three weeks will in any way help.
This sorry business needs bringing to a head as continual prevarication and delay, which has been its undoing from the start, does nobody any good. It is quite clear there is no mood in Parliament for Mrs May's "deal" and I would be absolutely disgusted if there was. Equally "No Deal" has now been made very difficult (though not impossible, especially as the supposed consequences such as queues of lorries at Dover because of delays at Calais have been announced as "disrespectful" by the Mayor of Calais).
All yesterday's vote did was to prevent Mrs May from bringing the same deal back to Parliament time and again and forces her to come up with "Plan B" in three days instead of three weeks following the rejection of her deal. Since she's had over two years to develop a Plan B and has singularly failed to do so I don't know how allowing her another three weeks will in any way help.
Although I have some sympathy with getting May to hurry up and give Parliament an alternative, (we all know there isn’t one,,,, unless she has kept someth8ng up her sleave) it was done in a wholey underhanded and disgraceful way.
With the added ‘bonus’ for remainextremists that they have effectively stopped May from planning a no deal by not allowing money to be spent on it. However if we do leave on no deal and there are big problems they can be laid squarely at the remain MPs feet for their sabotage.
Will say again, if the remainextremists or even just plain old remainers in Parliament has dragged their necks in and worked to get a better deal rather than constantly undermining it we would be in a far better position now.
Shame on the remainextremists.
With the added ‘bonus’ for remainextremists that they have effectively stopped May from planning a no deal by not allowing money to be spent on it. However if we do leave on no deal and there are big problems they can be laid squarely at the remain MPs feet for their sabotage.
Will say again, if the remainextremists or even just plain old remainers in Parliament has dragged their necks in and worked to get a better deal rather than constantly undermining it we would be in a far better position now.
Shame on the remainextremists.
'However if we do leave on no deal and there are big problems.....'
So you're admitting there could be big problems with a no deal? I thought we were Britain and everything was going to be fine?
Once again, I would remind leave voters that this shower are who you've entrusted to run everything in future. Not looking good, is it!
So you're admitting there could be big problems with a no deal? I thought we were Britain and everything was going to be fine?
Once again, I would remind leave voters that this shower are who you've entrusted to run everything in future. Not looking good, is it!
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