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Oh Dear, The Veil Of Civilised Discussion Seems To Be Slipping!
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Special place in hell? yeah next to you and your tyrant buddies mate!
Special place in hell? yeah next to you and your tyrant buddies mate!
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//We had the goal, we knew we wanted to simply leave EU control, we knew we wanted to retain good trading relationships like some other non-EU nations have, preferably better, and stay on good relationships, continue to participate in projects and security arrangements. //
This is not consistent with what Leave campaigners or later the government have said over the past three years, OG. Between them they've alternatively suggested Norway option, Canada +, CPTPP, default WTO (if they're mad), a trade agreement with the US (some were even talking about joining NAFTA at the very moment Trump was dismembering it), or most recently Chequers. These are all fundamentally different trade arrangements. The UK's stated red lines seemed originally to rule several of these out - but later the government just fudged them and made them pink lines instead. To call it mixed messages would be the understatement of the century. There has never been a clear goal coming from London for how we want to end up - because this has never been about trade or even the national interest, it's been about preserving the internal unity of the Conservative party. The government has just lurched, it seems, from one internal crisis to another. Internal party politics more than anything else has determined the govt's behaviour in the negotiations. Not a clear strategy for the UK's trade.
This is not consistent with what Leave campaigners or later the government have said over the past three years, OG. Between them they've alternatively suggested Norway option, Canada +, CPTPP, default WTO (if they're mad), a trade agreement with the US (some were even talking about joining NAFTA at the very moment Trump was dismembering it), or most recently Chequers. These are all fundamentally different trade arrangements. The UK's stated red lines seemed originally to rule several of these out - but later the government just fudged them and made them pink lines instead. To call it mixed messages would be the understatement of the century. There has never been a clear goal coming from London for how we want to end up - because this has never been about trade or even the national interest, it's been about preserving the internal unity of the Conservative party. The government has just lurched, it seems, from one internal crisis to another. Internal party politics more than anything else has determined the govt's behaviour in the negotiations. Not a clear strategy for the UK's trade.
While we are all frustrated in the UK at the lack of progress, it must be equally infuriating on the other side of the fence.
Don’t forget also that not only does the UK parliament have to rectify the agreement (thanks to Gina Miller) but the “undemocratic” European Parliament too.
By the way, my TROB consists of the people Mr Tusk was referring to rather than all Brexiters supporters necessarily ;-)
Don’t forget also that not only does the UK parliament have to rectify the agreement (thanks to Gina Miller) but the “undemocratic” European Parliament too.
By the way, my TROB consists of the people Mr Tusk was referring to rather than all Brexiters supporters necessarily ;-)
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2 fascinating episodes thus far, the final part is Monday.
Watch both, then give me reasons why we should stay in this charade built on a house of cards a moment longer!
Once out, we’ll no longer be brow-beaten into funding other nations folly and recklessness on a continual basis.
Furthermore, once we’ve been out a couple of years, tell me if you think others won’t be having their own in/out referendums very shortly?
2 fascinating episodes thus far, the final part is Monday.
Watch both, then give me reasons why we should stay in this charade built on a house of cards a moment longer!
Once out, we’ll no longer be brow-beaten into funding other nations folly and recklessness on a continual basis.
Furthermore, once we’ve been out a couple of years, tell me if you think others won’t be having their own in/out referendums very shortly?
What Tusk said is part of a larger problem I think. The reaction on both sides of the Brexit debate shows a disillusionment with the political class which will take ages to repair. Not in our lifetime? What is mirrored in Tusk’s comment in these threads is the lack of civility for the other person’s view . Would we talk to each other in the street or in the same room like this? Each side has little respect for the other. Orwell satirised this beautifully in the bleating in Animal Farm.
//It very much depends how you look at it.//
It does indeed. This is how I look at it. Tusk was born in Poland whilst it was under the boot of the totalitarian Soviet Union and therefor witnessed first-hand the brutal battles between starving Polish workers and Soviet security forces. The Soviet thugs gave no quarter to these dissenting workers, they were brutally put down, killed, thrown in jail without trial and send to concentration camps. Remember Lech Walesa? The man who formed the non communist workers unions and was kept under surveillance by the state security service and frequently detained. Many Polish people who saw the communist way as a boot heel became complete anticommunist, knowing what the system meant for them and their countrymen. Others saw it as a pathway to power and wanted to expand it. Guess which ethos Tusk follows?
Murk Hell(haha, there's your Hell) was born and raised in East Germany, again under the jackboot of the communist Russian forces, surprise surprise. Indoctrination on that level last a lifetime......they were taught the methods well.
It does indeed. This is how I look at it. Tusk was born in Poland whilst it was under the boot of the totalitarian Soviet Union and therefor witnessed first-hand the brutal battles between starving Polish workers and Soviet security forces. The Soviet thugs gave no quarter to these dissenting workers, they were brutally put down, killed, thrown in jail without trial and send to concentration camps. Remember Lech Walesa? The man who formed the non communist workers unions and was kept under surveillance by the state security service and frequently detained. Many Polish people who saw the communist way as a boot heel became complete anticommunist, knowing what the system meant for them and their countrymen. Others saw it as a pathway to power and wanted to expand it. Guess which ethos Tusk follows?
Murk Hell(haha, there's your Hell) was born and raised in East Germany, again under the jackboot of the communist Russian forces, surprise surprise. Indoctrination on that level last a lifetime......they were taught the methods well.
Tusk was a member of Solidarity and actively resisted the Jaruzelski regime. His father was imprisoned in a concentration camp. I think it's a bit weird to call him a totalitarian for coming after your light bulbs and weed killer and vacuum cleaners.
Our own government, by the way, ruled two years ago that satirical TV shows aren't allowed to use footage from parliament, is in favour of censoring the internet to an extraordinary degree, and has used its allies in the press to brand political opponents 'enemies of the people' and 'saboteurs' (to be 'crushed'), and arrests or threatens people for making jokes on social media or 'being disrespectful' to the police. None of that, as far as I know, comes from Brussels.
Our own government, by the way, ruled two years ago that satirical TV shows aren't allowed to use footage from parliament, is in favour of censoring the internet to an extraordinary degree, and has used its allies in the press to brand political opponents 'enemies of the people' and 'saboteurs' (to be 'crushed'), and arrests or threatens people for making jokes on social media or 'being disrespectful' to the police. None of that, as far as I know, comes from Brussels.
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