Brexit

[ludwig]

The people wanted it. Their elected representatives didn't. Isn't that the whole problem?

[jim360]

I mean it's the certainty I object to. At the moment I agree that, if nothing else changes, March 29th is the legal default exit date, because of course it is. Both UK Law and the EU Treaties specify or imply it. But there are mechanisms for this to change beyond just May's deal being accepted.

[dannyk13]

According to one source, at the moment, more than half of Tory mp's are in favour of a hard Brexit.

[dannyk13]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/04/most-tory-members-would-choose-no-deal-over-may-brexit-plan

[jim360]

Yes, I think last night's vote saw a lot of Tory MPs vote against the motion. Including Stephen Barclay, who was the last person to speak in its favour...

[-Talbot-]

A big problem has always been those who repeatedly spout...

''Whilst I respect the outcome of the referendum''


They're liars and I have no respect for them.

[naomi24]

^Nor me.

[-Talbot-]

Gromit
// Their elected representatives didn't. //

These elected representatives were voted in AFTER the referendum, so ‘the people’ made that choice.




And what did most of them promise?
Or does that little snippet of info not matter?

[Khandro]

There's only two choices, a hard Brexit or no Brexit, The conditions which will be placed on an extension will be unacceptable and 'no Brexit' would lead to civil unrest on a very large scale with may MPs losing their seats, so it will be a hard Brexit, which will be disruptive for a while, but Britain will come out of it better in the end.

[diddlydo]

We will never "come out of it better" unless we stay in the EU.

[Ellipsis]

> Whilst I respect the outcome of the referendum

What's to respect? It was poorly organised, lies all round, spending limits were breached, the use of Cambridge Analytica-style outside influences are still becoming apparent, the outcome was very tight and, especially given all of that, the result should only ever have been advisory.

So no, I don't respect the outcome. I will grudgingly put up with it, but not on any terms.

[jno]

The people wanted it. Their elected representatives didn't.

the people also wanted to elect those representatives. They could have voted Ukip to be certain of getting the Brexit they wanted, but they didn't. Ukip were partly defeated by the first-past-the-post system

http://www.cityam.com/215408/general-election-2015-why-first-past-post-has-killed-ukip

but the people voted for that too, also in a referendum.

The people really need to make up their minds and stop blaming the politicians they chose themselves.

[Old_Geezer]

29th is certain to be the leaving date unless something happens to change that. And the discussion had gone to being, "the fact is we ain't leaving on the 29th March".

I guess we all sometimes make the error of misreading, and believing we've read that which we want to complain about instead.

[Old_Geezer]

"They could have voted Ukip to be certain of getting the Brexit they wanted"

Everyone is fully aware that many voters opt for the candidate of a preferred party and dare not do otherwise in case it splits the vote and lets the "other lot" in. More fool them, but... It's unreasonable to expect a new party to win many seats because of that: unless trust in the existing system has been totally lost, and probably not even then.

[jno]

none the less, they had their chance. Wanting Brexit but voting in someone who doesn't - now that's unreasonable, and they're paying the price.

[dave50]

In every general election, if you counted the whole population who are eligible to vote, the winning party always has far less than 50% of the vote (probably around 30%). Using the argument that the remainers are always using, ie only a minority of the population voted to leave so its not valid then perhaps the same should apply to every general election.

[naomi24]

jno, //Wanting Brexit but voting in someone who doesn't - now that's unreasonable, and they're paying the price. //

Was there a mainstream party we could have elected who didn't want Brexit?

[naomi24]

^Oops ... who DID want Brexit?

[New Judge]

“The point Gromit making is poor.”

Not just poor, but ridiculous.

“But not all ‘the people’ are leavers, just a third of them”

We won’t quibble over a few percentage points but actually around 37% of those who eligible to voted chose to leave. I expect the likes of Gulliver to agree with such inanities but perhaps, Gromit you could explain how you know the views of the 28% who didn’t vote. That might help the rest of us, who are not blessed with such blindingly obvious logic, to understand your point. (NJ does not hold his breath for a reply).

Anyway, water under the bridge and all that. MPs were elected on a pledge to remove the country from the EU, they passed a motion to invoke A50 and then enabled legislation to effect our withdrawal. There was always a strong likelihood that no acceptable deal would be forthcoming (a very strong chance, in fact) but now they say we cannot leave as the law provides. Talk of a “National crisis” and that “emergency legislative procedures always available at times or crisis” etc. In the words of the late Jim Callaghan (who didn’t actually say it as far as I can recall) “Crisis? What crisis?” The only crisis is that fabricated by MPs. They passed a law making it mandatory for us to leave the EU. They won’t allow us to leave via the only deal on offer (thank God) but they won’t allow us to leave without one either.

“There's no certainty of that. A rejected request for an extension still has the 29th as leaving date.”

Quite so, OG. But if an extension is declined there is only one alternative left, as Jim has explained. Since 80% of MPs would prefer we remained in the EU I can see that alternative being eagerly accepted because it’s all got a bit too tricky for the poor dears.

“According to one source, at the moment, more than half of Tory mp's are in favour of a hard Brexit.”

Unfortunately, danny, that only amounts to about 150 or so and that issue was put to bed on Wednesday evening.

“The people really need to make up their minds and stop blaming the politicians they chose themselves.

Please see above (for the 94th time).

[Zacs-Master]

'MPs were elected on a pledge to remove the country from the EU'

Were they? Even the ones who were outwardly Pro-EU?

Could you clarify, as that might help the rest of us, who are not blessed with such blindingly obvious logic, to understand your point? (ZM does not hold his breath for a reply).

[ichkeria]

The country is divided and fractious and divided over this issue, and therefore so are its representatives.
I think that is actually quite fitting and shows our politicians DO represent us. There is no consensus on how the UK should leave the EU: there never was and never will be. And while it is certainly the case that record numbers voted for leave, the remain vote was also huge.
However, if you held a vote tomorrow (well, ok Monday) asking MPs if they were in favour of upholding the referendum result there would be a huge vote in favour, however, and that is NOT meaningless.
We have a deal that was negotiated, for all its faults, led by a PM for all HER faults, but it's being stymied largely by a small group of MPs who have a cloud cuckoo-land idea of Brexit which they think they can force on the country by default. But their world is closing in.