France/Paris

[eash]

I'm not really up with the news as much as i used to so was just wonderng why all these riots are going on in France?

[OBonio]

Immigrant problems.

'I can't get a job'.

And ******* on your own doorstep will help how? Idiots.

[MsBadely]

The French are horrid to their brown people.

[foxy.fagin]

And the British are so damned good and fair to theirs, I suppose, MsBadely?

[MsBadely]

Compared to the French, yes.

[january_bug]

Right, I shall attempt to provide links to a few less heated versions of the story.

I very much hope that my links won't provide such sweeping generalisation as to imply that ALL French people are racist - as we all know this to be patently untrue.

Map

Timeline

Story

Basically, the story is that rioting has started in Paris and spread to many other French cities. The feeling amongst many young, male, non-white (mainly of North African origin) people seems to be that they are forced to live in ghettos, and that they can't get access to the "better" jobs because of their names/colour. These are not all immigrants, they are people who's families moved to France, sometimes generations ago.

The unrest was started after two teenagers died, apparently after a police chase.

Now, I'm not trying to say what the truth behind this is, because I don't know. However, I hope the links and this brief (and hopefully unbiased) summary will help you get up to speed.

My own view is that we (British) are in no position to preach. We have had race riots in this country, and we do not have a perfect track record regards racism and immigrants. Moreover, the situation in France is entirely different to our own 'problems' and I don't think the two countries' reactions to immigration and immigrants can or should be compared.

[eash]

Thanks everyone. This world is such a horrible place to live in these days....

[stevie21]

Is it only the "immigrants" doing the rioting? If so, that'll do their cause no good whatsoever - if anything it'll justify the discrimination that some some are dishing out (at least in the minds of those doing the discriminating).

[foxy.fagin]

No, it's not only the immigrants. There are also a lot of pertinent troublemakers as there are so often in any of these type of troubles whether it be France, England or wherever. The links put on by january_bug give a good, and, from what i have read, fair point of view.

As has been remarked over here the media, the non-North Africans refer to people as Monsieur Sarkozy, Monsieur Villepin... The media, the non-North Africans, non-blacks talk about Sarkozy, Villepin... Says a lot, don't you think?

[foxy.fagin]

Sorry I meant the North Africans refer to Monsieur X and Y; the media and the white of white French talk about Sarko or Sarkozy and Villepin.
Sorry if I confused everybody.

[vehelpfulguy]

A fairy tale.Once upon a time most of the countries of Europe got very rich. This attracted a certain number of people from other countries to come to the rich countries and find wealth.

This did not matter too much because the number of people who came here was fairly small, and most of the people who came here worked hard and tried to adopt to the society they joined.

Then a stupid organization called the EU decided to take down the border controls between countires and allow free travel between EU countries.

All of a sudden the people from outside Europe saw a great opportunity to come to Europe and make their fortune.

So they came, and more came, and more came. They came any way they could, legal or illegal.

Unlike the people who had come earlier they could not all find jobs, and many were not willing to adapt to the society they joined.

Many turned to crime, many started to live in ghettos, some got so angry they walked around with bombs strapped to themselves willing to blow up themselves and anyone who was nearby.

The governments of these rich countries seemed unable or unwilling to sort out the problem, so they just let it get worse and worse.

"It is multi-cultralism, it will sort itself out" they all said.

The people who had already lived here got more angry about the whole situation, but were told by their governemnt "it is your fault, you are all institutionally racist".

Eventually many of these people who had arrived expecting to be given a job and money for no reason at all started to get upset.

"I know, lets set fire to our local school and all the cars, in the area that will help". It didnt.

Eventually the EU and all the governments woke up to the problem and brought back the borders, sent back all the illegal immigrants and fake asylum seekers.

And we all lived happily ever after

[january_bug]

Funny how you're name is vehelpfulguy - when it seems you wouldn't want to help anyone except "your own". Hmmmm.

[Oneeyedvic]

"most of the countries of Europe got rich" - how exactly - by taking the wealth from others maybe?

"this attracted certain numbers" - actually, Britain was facing a labour shortgae so asked immigrants to come over

etc etc etc (really can't be bothered if you believe your own drivel)

Very Helpful fairy tale

[foxy.fagin]

janny-buggy and oneeyedvic 10 out of 10 for nice short to the point remarks.

Let me just add that like England, France too was facing a labour shortage and of course all this was WAY before the EU opened the borders.

[blinkyblinky]

A lot of people lead unfulfilling lives. Maybe they're unemployed or they work in dead end jobs and they feel an inner rage or shame about their own insignificance and inadequacy. Their situation might be exacerbated by experiences of racism, poverty etc. So they join the IRA or Al Queda or whatever or just start smashing the place up. It draws attention to themselves and makes them feel like big men (it's almost always men in their late teens or twenties.)

Those young unemployed French men have hot water, TV, mobile phones and a million other material comforts that so many other people in the world can only dream of. However, they think it's their right that they should have more. Hence the rioting.

[january_bug]

blinkyblinky - more like, a decent home, and the chance to earn money for themselves!?! Do you know these people personally, because you speak as though you do!? Or do you actually live in France?! Again - you speak as if you do.

[foxy.fagin]

Sunday night and things are quietening down, thank goodness.

[blinkyblinky]

January bug, do I have to live in France and know these people personally to say that going out on the streets and chucking molotov cocktails at cars and shops and policemen is wrong?

as it happens, I don't live in France, but I've visited France many times. I've also visited amongst other places Malawi, Thailand and China, and I know that anyone living in France is a lot better off than 99% of the people living in these countries.

No I haven't met these people personally, but I've been jobless - and homeless - myself in the past, so if you're saying that living in such conditions justifies going on a rampage, I think I'm qualified to say that it doesn't.

Also, why don't women do this kind of shlt? That's a serious question, I'm interested to know people's answer. It's almost always men, and it's almost always young men. Why is that?

[foxy.fagin]

I'd try and answer blinkyblinky but you'd probably think I was being insulting again. Anyway if you think they have no reason for rioting because you have been to, amongst other places, Malawi, Thailand and China you are probably right.
Unfortunately these people can't compare their lives to those of the countries you mention as many of them haven't even been able to get any further than the 'zone' they have grown up in.

[vehelpfulguy]

So januarybug and oneeyedvic, you are happy that there are (according to government figures) over HALF A MILLION illegal immigrants in this country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4637273.stm

See that first word ILLEGAL. We did not invite them here and they are not wanted here.

Do we know what they are doing day to day ? No, nobody does.

Are they paying taxes, probably not.

Are they using the health service and other services that you and your family are paying for. Probably.

Are they involved in crime, many yes. We even have a police group called Reflex to deal with crime and illegal immigrants.

http://www.acpo.police.uk/news/2003/q4/reflex.html

I know Britain was facing a labour shortage and invited SOME immigrants here, I have no problem with that.

But that was not the huge numbers we have now, many ILLIGAL, and soon we will be facing many of the same problems France is having.

[Oneeyedvic]

Of course we have a problem with illegal immigrants - that is not what anyone is saying. Howveer, read your fairy story again - and you will see that the way you phrase it, it sounds like you are attacking all immigrants on your first paragraph.

Amazingly, talk like that does not help to solve any situation but only inflames it.

You also seem to fail to mention that a lot of the problem stems from immigrants who went to France three generations ago. ie they are French citizens but feel they are being disciminated against - not illegal immigrants or people who have come over in the last few years.

But hey ho, I doubt the Mail bothers mentioning any of that. Lets make life simple: Immigrants = bad.