ChatterBank10 mins ago
Collective Conservative Lunacy
As the two candidates propose more and more extreme and impossible brexit solutions their tory minions seem eager to support them whatever. A case of mass bonkerism!!!
How do we save ourselves from this madness? At least the Scots can escape to Independent International outward looking progressive membership of the EU when what was once the UK departs to an isolationist friendless impoverished future.
How do we save ourselves from this madness? At least the Scots can escape to Independent International outward looking progressive membership of the EU when what was once the UK departs to an isolationist friendless impoverished future.
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Nothing in this is extreme, it's merely stating the inevitable consequence of trying to negotiate with those unable to get away from an attempt to punish those leaving and trying to extort from them.
The Scots have more sense than to split from the UK, and will know that it's unlikely that the EU will agree to funding them from a smaller number of countries contributing to the budget, by letting them join. The Scots aren't that isolationist, apart from the SNP and their supporters.
The Scots have more sense than to split from the UK, and will know that it's unlikely that the EU will agree to funding them from a smaller number of countries contributing to the budget, by letting them join. The Scots aren't that isolationist, apart from the SNP and their supporters.
Although the EU are well known for not always sticking to their guns if it means expansion of the EU, they have stated that an independent Scotland wouldn’t be able to eligible to join the EU.
Therefore an independent Scotland would have to fail or succeed on its own merits. Set its own budgets with income not subsidised by the UK or EU. Something it hasn’t been able to do for whatever reason for some time.
But something I think Nicola Sturgeon has as an idea is that she can singlehandedly convince the EU that they should be in the EU. A bit like Theresa May thought she could negotiate a good deal NS thinks she can get the upper hand of the EU. But with the EU I think they have l aren’t a hard lesson. New members must sign up wholesale to the EU without a single dissent.
She would then have to consider the border.
Therefore an independent Scotland would have to fail or succeed on its own merits. Set its own budgets with income not subsidised by the UK or EU. Something it hasn’t been able to do for whatever reason for some time.
But something I think Nicola Sturgeon has as an idea is that she can singlehandedly convince the EU that they should be in the EU. A bit like Theresa May thought she could negotiate a good deal NS thinks she can get the upper hand of the EU. But with the EU I think they have l aren’t a hard lesson. New members must sign up wholesale to the EU without a single dissent.
She would then have to consider the border.
Oh dear you seem to be suffering.
Still odd how you say an Independent Scotland and then go on to shackle yourself to the EU. If you think Westminster was dictatorial(where you have a disproportion representation in your favour) just wait until the EU get hold of you (If they let you in).
And hope your young Scots enjoy bing in the EU army.
Just for the record I have not seen any outlandish promises with regard to Brexit, must be in your own mind.
Still odd how you say an Independent Scotland and then go on to shackle yourself to the EU. If you think Westminster was dictatorial(where you have a disproportion representation in your favour) just wait until the EU get hold of you (If they let you in).
And hope your young Scots enjoy bing in the EU army.
Just for the record I have not seen any outlandish promises with regard to Brexit, must be in your own mind.
A note to Rich.
"Little England" has through its institutions (like common law and democracy) created the best societies to live in. I give some examples: Canada, Australia and New Zealand. And the loose cannon USA.
"Little England" since the Union has prospered with the help of Scottish talent. Why can't some Scots see that the Union has been mutually beneficial?
"Little England" has through its institutions (like common law and democracy) created the best societies to live in. I give some examples: Canada, Australia and New Zealand. And the loose cannon USA.
"Little England" since the Union has prospered with the help of Scottish talent. Why can't some Scots see that the Union has been mutually beneficial?
" At least the Scots can escape to Independent International outward looking progressive membership of the EU" - err how? First they need permission for indyref2 and even if they get it they still have to vote to leave the UK, then they have to apply to the EUSSR which will, if it deigns to accept them, subjugate them to vassalage. if they manage all that they'll beg to rejoin the UK after a few years of bowing and scrapping to the EUSSR. Good luck with that!
Actually the left is projecting again.
The Little Englanders are the remainers. It is they who don’t want to look further than white Europe. It is remainers that think the UK too small and insignificant to be independent.
Brexiter see the opportunity in the whole world. Brexiter will accept migrants from all across the world not just the white Europeans.
So the left once again projecting their own bias and fear onto the opposition.
Remainers are not just little Englanders, they are frightened little Englanders.
The Little Englanders are the remainers. It is they who don’t want to look further than white Europe. It is remainers that think the UK too small and insignificant to be independent.
Brexiter see the opportunity in the whole world. Brexiter will accept migrants from all across the world not just the white Europeans.
So the left once again projecting their own bias and fear onto the opposition.
Remainers are not just little Englanders, they are frightened little Englanders.
//They probably do think there are benefits. However...//
Don't see it that way. A "United Kingdom". We co-operate as a group, don't we?
"Share the benefits" rhetoric is invidious. Scotland's got the Barnier formula and its own parliament. An "independent" Scotland within the EU would not have the power of a local parish.
Don't see it that way. A "United Kingdom". We co-operate as a group, don't we?
"Share the benefits" rhetoric is invidious. Scotland's got the Barnier formula and its own parliament. An "independent" Scotland within the EU would not have the power of a local parish.
"The responses so far have just illustrated the points I was making.
Ill informed, wrong and delusional" - we are delusional? Right oh! Even if Scotland get independence, they will never be allowed in the EUSSR, they will be blocked by at least France and Spain because that would set a precedent with other groups in their respective countries. Catalonia, Basque etc. So leave and build the wall and be truly independent in Tiny Scotland, good luck.
Ill informed, wrong and delusional" - we are delusional? Right oh! Even if Scotland get independence, they will never be allowed in the EUSSR, they will be blocked by at least France and Spain because that would set a precedent with other groups in their respective countries. Catalonia, Basque etc. So leave and build the wall and be truly independent in Tiny Scotland, good luck.
In 2014, by about 2%, Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Those who voted against independence ("NO") obviously (it seems to me) did so on more than one factor. They reckon Scotland could not survive on its own, that Scotland is incapable, incompetent, and that it only survives through the generosity of England - I have heard this stated more or less word for word by university educated Scots. Any comparison with countries of similar population size or smaller, with fewer natural resources and less land than Scotland, is dismissed as irrelevant, could never apply to Scotland. These countries do far better inside and outside (mixed) the EU than the UK does, all comparisons consistently show this - yet the status quo is considered as good as it gets for Scotland. Hang onto what you have for the certainty, including the certainty that it will permanently be well below the best.
One of the reasons/factors put forward in the 2014 referendum was that Scotland would end up outside the EU if it left the UK. Now it is leaving anyway, all because it left its fate in the hands of the English (no UK election/referendum would ever go against an English majority, a numerical impossibility).
Still there are people who argue that for it to leave the UK would be a disaster for Scotland, lunacy. Should Scotland ever be so insane as to leave the UK then it will certainly beg to return within a winter or two. Meanwhile, the SNP is far and away the largest party in Scotland.
Somehow none of this adds up to a conclusion that a Scotland within the UK is a natural and logical inevitability or that that is necessarily the best for Scotland, or even England for that matter.
These things have yet to play out and we can but wait. Some of those making the most outrageous statements may not have long enough to live to see the outcome. Like quite a few, I know what I want to see happen, and it may not be that far off. For the record, on behalf of Scots, I find the premise that Scots are overwhelmingly useless in independently serving their own best interests - they may have been brought up to despair ("We're doomed, we're a' doomed") but I am convinced that, given the chance and need (necessity is the....), they would/will be able of significantly improving on the backwardness (not mentioning current political chaos/mess) that is the UK.
My biggest reservation is on whether they could arrange a radical enough change quickly enough to make the absolute best of things - after all, last time more than half of them clearly lacked the necessary vision.
One of the reasons/factors put forward in the 2014 referendum was that Scotland would end up outside the EU if it left the UK. Now it is leaving anyway, all because it left its fate in the hands of the English (no UK election/referendum would ever go against an English majority, a numerical impossibility).
Still there are people who argue that for it to leave the UK would be a disaster for Scotland, lunacy. Should Scotland ever be so insane as to leave the UK then it will certainly beg to return within a winter or two. Meanwhile, the SNP is far and away the largest party in Scotland.
Somehow none of this adds up to a conclusion that a Scotland within the UK is a natural and logical inevitability or that that is necessarily the best for Scotland, or even England for that matter.
These things have yet to play out and we can but wait. Some of those making the most outrageous statements may not have long enough to live to see the outcome. Like quite a few, I know what I want to see happen, and it may not be that far off. For the record, on behalf of Scots, I find the premise that Scots are overwhelmingly useless in independently serving their own best interests - they may have been brought up to despair ("We're doomed, we're a' doomed") but I am convinced that, given the chance and need (necessity is the....), they would/will be able of significantly improving on the backwardness (not mentioning current political chaos/mess) that is the UK.
My biggest reservation is on whether they could arrange a radical enough change quickly enough to make the absolute best of things - after all, last time more than half of them clearly lacked the necessary vision.
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