Flirting Women Asking For Rape

[Drusilla]

Believe it or not, this is the headline of the London Metro today. I picked it up whilst returning from a job and very nearly missed my station, I was so shocked.

Amnesty International were responsible for the study that stated one third of Britons believe a woman who acts flirtatiously is partly to blame if she is raped.

Amazingly, 5% of women thought a woman totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, compared with only 3% of men.

12000 rapes were reported in 2004-2005, but Amnesty believe the actual figure is closer to 60000.

Are ABers as shocked as me at the blame culture that still exists in rape cases?

Feel free to drift as far away from my question as you please, but let's keep it civilised please, ABers.

[Greggo']

I agree with woofgang. Rape is without doubt one of the most serious crimes a person a commit. It is unfortunately in many cases a very difficult crime to prove. The type of premeditated rape at knife point is normally how people perceive rape cases. This can sometimes be unavoidable.

There's no getting away from the fact that if a girl agrees to consently go back to a mans house for extra drinks flirting etc after a night out, do leave themselves more vulnerable to be forced into sex. Again in these cases it's very difficult to prove as it's one word against another, providing there are no serious injuries.

We don't live in a perfect society and never will. All that people can do is try and reduce risk of a situation where the victims are alone with a stranger and are drunk and flirting.

It is comparable to any other crime, in that people do have less sympathy if you are left open to the crime i.e. someone flashing their cash in pubs and clubs etc constantly, to later mugged in the street.

It doesn't by any means make the crime ok, but steps need to taken to make yourself less vunerable.

[Oneeyedvic]

Here is the actual survey:

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2005/Amnesty%20International%20-%20Sexual%20abuse/OmAmnesty.pdf (it is a pdf so may take a while).

Interesting reading - especially as I presumed that it would be predominately men thinking that a woman was aprtially responsible. In fact, the women surveyed seem to think the same.

And nothing to do with the quetion, but I am amazed that 17% of the people polled between the ages of 18 and 24 owned their own house with no mortgage!

[january_bug]

Drusilla - I haven't time (Well, I'm at work so I shouldn't stop really) to read all the responses, but I shall say this...

After what was said on CB at the weekend, I am not in the slightest bit surprised at all. At least one user found it funny that a woman in a news item had said that she hoped that sexily dressed women got raped. Yes, it was FUNNY - not shocking, or offensive, but FUNNY. Comments were then made to suggest that at least one user agreed with this sentiment and/or that sexily dressed women deserved to be the victims of sexual offenses.

Therefore, I'm not surprised to read this new today, although had I read it on Friday I would have been a little more surprised.

I am, naturally, appalled by it, and I think there are some people out there who clearly don't understand what "rape" actually is. I presume some of these neanderthal morons still think a man has a right to sex with his wife whenever he pleases!?!

Women should not be blamed for being victims of rape. No matter what anyone does, violence should only EVER be used in self-defence, and raping a woman is NOT an act of self-defence, therefore I see it as IMPOSSIBLE to condone.

If I've repeated someone else's views, I apologise - but in that case, please read it as agreement with those sentiments! :-)

[Drusilla]

I'm quite interested in your two tiered approach Ward-Minter. My growing concern about the falling conviction rates in rape cases and the massive number of unreported rapes, would suggest that a radical overhaul of the system is necessary.
I accept the argument that rape is rape is rape, but if we are to increase the number of convictions for sexual offences, a tiered system encompassing varying degrees of sexual assault and rape may prove necessary. It might also help if we introduced a formalised plea bargain system.
Any comments?

[ronniemonda8]

an ought is not an is. (Andy).Question: women going around very scantily dressed and drunk: more or less likely than someone else to get raped?

Amnesty's question is a bit loaded: 'blame' and all that. Blame can mean 'it's her fault' or can mean 'her behaviour contributed to the outcome'. Bad question really.

[ronniemonda8]

re: definitions of 'rape', didn't they just change from 'consent cannot be assumed' to 'consent must be confirmed'?

[january_bug]

W-M - but what if the marriage had broken down, is it ok then?! I have a good friend who is married, but is going to divorce soon. Are you saying it would be acceptable for the husband to force HER into sex!?! I cannot believe you think that saying "I do" ONCE, means the guy has every right. You are saying that domestic violence is a lesser crime to injuries and traumas caused by strangers, yet it is the incidents of domestic violence and rape by a person known to the victim that are more common. Just because it happens more frequently doesn't make it ok.

Also - to return to the survey - a MINORITY of rape victims are the sort that are scantily clad etc, as most rape victims are raped by the partners or former parters. That doesn't mean to say that I think we shouldn't have this thread Drusilla, not at all! :-)

Finally, when people talk about "blame" and "contributing factor" - where do you draw the line with "asking for it"?! I have 33" legs and go out ocassionally wearing VERY short miniskirts. Does that mean I am asking for it!?! Does that mean a man has a RIGHT to have sex with me?!

A man has no more RIGHT to have sex with a woman, than she does to shove a rolling pin up his you know where. And MANY men have acted in a way that is asking for that!!! (Sorry if that appears trite, but until men will learn to grasp (as many already have) the concept of male rape, they just won't understand what women are talking about when they get so worked up on matters like this.)

[Ward-Minter]

buggy this appears somewhat deja vous. Where have I said it is "OK" for rape in marriage. Come on, please give me credit!!!!!

I am proposing a lesser offence for rape in marriage or a higher offence for stranger rape. Depends on your politics.

I would never condone any form of sexual or power abuse and having read my thread again I have made this clear methinks!!!

[Chessman]

Just a short one, I don't think I can add much to whats already been said, except that, apparently, nearly every rape is committed by someone you know, and I find that particular statistic even more disturbing.

[ronniemonda8]

I think you have made it clear.

There still is quite a difference between a man who has sex with his wife, imagining consent (say she is tipsy), turns out he didn't confirm consent, she cries 'rape' afterwards, and he gets convicted. Should he been in prison for the same amount of time as some guy who hides in a park, holds a stranger at knifepoint, and forces, etc. etc? I think not.

Re: being scantily clad in miniskirts. The fact is rape is about male sexual impulses and these are more likely to be triggered by women in short skirts/low tops. It not being right doesn't change the fact that it is more likely to occur to such people.

[january_bug]

No it's NOT ronnie - it's about violence and power. It's NOT about sex. I thought you spoke as someone who knew a victim. Have you asked them about this?

Also - if the woman is tipsy and later "cries rape", it shouldn't matter if she's the wife, fiance, partner, girlfriend, date, or the girl he just picked up in the pub! Therefore the matter of the relationship between the two people should be irrelevant - rape is RAPE.

W-M - I'm sorry but by creating a two tier system I believe it is suggesting that there are acceptable degrees of rape. That it's bad if it's a stranger, but not so bad if it's the woman's partner. I think to introduce such a system would be a HUGE blow to women's rights as it would, to some extent, say that one type of rape is more ok than another - yet no form of rape is OK at all! I can't balance a two tier system with the idea that rape is unacceptable.

I know you didn't say rape in marriage is ok -but you said that it is more ok than rape by a stranger, and I think that's a VERY VERY dangerous path to start along.

Of course I agree that one of the biggest problems is women making false cries of rape, and I believe that, if there a way to PROVE that the woman was lying (i.e., that she hadn't be forced by the alleged attacker to withdraw her claim) then she should be held up on criminal charges herself. It appears that it's not just men who need to learn that rape is serious!!

[Miss Zippy]

Surveys like this are essentially flawed because they seem to be assuming that all men have the potential to rape. Men rape for different reasons (there are four main rapist profiles if I remember correctly) and if you're unlucky enough to come across one of these men at the wrong time, you've had it irrespective of what you're wearing or how you're behaving.

[Miss Zippy]

P.S. ronniemonda8, rape is absolutely NOT about male sexual impulses. That would indeed make all men potential rapists.

[ronniemonda8]

sorry, I just don't buy that. Sure, some white coat psychology researcher weirdo might like to get a paper out suggesting 'Ooooh, it's all about power and control', when it's nothing of the sort. Some guy hiding in the park pulls out a knife and rapes a woman, or some guy forces himself on a woman he fancies whether she likes it or not...they are driven by power and control?I think not!!! They are driven by the desire to have sex (as all men are), except that most men have a working frontal cortex which tells them when it is appropriate to ignore that impulse (e.g. when the woman does not want to partake).

Your argument is also fallacious...because these rapists do it with sexual motive, does not syllogistically follow that all men with a sexual motive are rapists.

[Ward-Minter]

JB just ignore ronald. Come to think of it, it is hard to take anything serious by a child called ronald isn't it?

Anyway, JB not for me to argue, but I am not saying it is more OK. I have argued that stranger rape could equally be upgraded if that's possible. Trying to plays devils advocate is most frustrating!!!!

On the point rape is a power status and not sexual I agree with. As liberal as I am I fail to see how violence in sex is enjoyable. A bit of slap and tickle is OK but any force and harm (both pyschological and physical) is not my cup of tea.

As we have permission to "drift" from the point I will mention "Catharticism" (Sp?) with the recent debate about banning violent sexual web-sites.

Do they reduce sexual assaultss or encourage them? Discussed a million times before, but now seems prudent.

My view is I am against censorship. If the movie/download etc is not "real" rape I have not got a problem with it. If that's what rocks your boat. I fail to see how this would make people more violent and out of touch with sexual reality. The Jane Longhurst case of recent months is an extreme example only!

Any views buggy? (I will reply later as off to the Legion for a pool competion)