Labour Civil War Over Trans Rights

[fender62]

labour are making themselves so unelectable, reading the article im like really, is she serious
labour are digging ever deeper into oblivion, its like chaos poltics, rights this rights that, and the dont deport the criminals back to jamaica, just who's side are they on, not the general public.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7994935/Labour-civil-war-trans-rights-Rebecca-Long-Bailey-backs-controversial-campaign.html

[ToraToraTora]

yeah XXY and XYY very rare but even so they are male if they have a Y chromosome. What we are talking about ere is normal XX or XY wanting to change sex, they cannot.

[Old_Geezer]

Since transphobia (if such is even a valid word) is at best subjective, and any accusation probably simple used as insult/domineering tactic by those using the 'woke' nonsense, then it's clear that this sort of suggestion is merely a witchhun attemptt, used to throw out realists who refuse to lie and, retain those willing to be cowed by the likes of Long-Bailey; who seems determined to live up to the nickname someone coined for her. Labour needs to get it's collective head together, sling out the hard-of-thinking lot who will otherwise ensure it's unelectable, and get back to normality and genuine concern for the hoi polloi, rather than the privileged.

[Old_Geezer]

...attempt...

[Old_Geezer]

...witchhunt...

[cassa333]

They are riding on the liberal coattails of the US Democratic Party.

The Labour Party need to be careful about who they alienate. If you start down the sectionality route you end up coming a cropper somewhere down the line.

[cassa333]

Where it is true that there are some chromosomal abnormalities that account for intersex and such like, the % of the population is so low as to be ridiculous to ascribe a whole movement of transgenderism to it.

Gender is really only now being bandied around as fluid enough to keep trans people happy. Science has not shown, as far as I am aware, that there are more than two genders. Male and female.

That is not to say that gender dysphasia doesn’t not exist. In fact it is so prevalent that this whole trans industry has sprung up to push it.

That the water supply has for many decades been flooded with female hormones through the passing of the contraceptive pill may be mutating and changing some human Hormone balances, as they have done with fish in rivers high in run off from water treatment centres.

If people want to live dressed as the opposite of what they are, go for it. If they want to mutilate their bodies to that aim, go for it. I couldn’t give a fig.

But force me to say that as scientific fact and you had better wait a generation till I’m dead and you have dumbed down the population to the dark ages of science.

[Jackdaw33]

I am old enough to remember when a Tranny was a hand-held transistor radio so that you could listen to Radio Luxemburg.

[ToraToraTora]

BA for cassa, right there, bang on.

[jim360]

Cassa isn't bang on at all. As I've pointed out multiple times before, the concept of transgender predates anything modern, nor is it a Western phenomenon. Societies across the world have recognised that people's gender identities -- which, for the umpteenth time, is *not* about their genetic makeup, even if the two are usually the same -- can be more varied than just "male" and "female". In Indian cultures we have the hijra, in Native American tribes you can find "two-spirit" people; in the West you can find cases scattered through history, although they are admittedly rare, perhaps partially because the strongest proponent of a "two-gender" model are Abrahamic religions: all that "male and female, He created them," is a clear message that only two genders exist as ordained by God, even if that's not the specific intent of the passage.

All of this is well-documented. None of this has anything to do with the "water supply", or other conspiratorial claptrap ideas.

The science is still developing, because of course it is; and in any case, in order to understand a phenomenon you first have to accept it, rather than suppress it. But there's a fairly simple point behind it all in the end: who we are is about far more than just our genetic make-up.

[jim360]

In terms of the Original Post, though, all this is by the by. Turning Labour into a cult of ideological purity is bound to backfire. Try to persuade people by all means -- in either direction, I suppose -- but shutting them out achieves nothing. In all the time we've argued back and forth on this, we still have the discussion.

[Ringlet]

ToraToraTora, just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it wrong. You are confusing the term "gender" with the term "sex". Your "sex" is biologically determined, and your "gender" is socially determined, that is, your gender is what your perceive yourself as, and what other people perceive you as. It is easy to change your gender. It is not so easy to change your sex, because it is created by biological determinism. However, for various reasons, such as (but not always) chromosomal differences, biological characteristics that dictate the sex of a child become confused or disarranged. This may result in a disparity between biological sexual characteristics and psychological determinism regarding gender, because not everyone develops in the same way on Chromosome pair number 23 (the sex chromosomes). This biologically-based difference can lead to differences in self-perception, which in turn lead to prejudice, discrimination and misunderstanding by others, such as that expressed by ToraToraTora. Sadly, to take another past example of such misunderstanding, it is only recently that such prejudice has been reduced in relation to individuals whose chromosomes on the 21st level are different, that is, individuals born with Downs syndrome. But generally, we now understand the causes and symptoms of Down syndrome and society generally is less likely to be judgemental. We should at least try to apply the same level of acceptance and understanding to those whose 23rd chromosomes are different, and allow them, without censure or disapproval, to express their diversity in a way of their own choosing. We should accept people's diversity in relation to their biological development, we should respect the choices they make as a result of that diversity, and we should at least try to make an intelligent attempt to understand the underlying biological and psychological causes of such diversity.

[sevenOP]

Excellent, non-preachy posts jim360 and Ringlet, trying to help us understand, which is why I come here.

It seems wrong and puzzling to me what some in Labour are trying to achieve around Trans rights; as Ringlet says we should be understanding - BUT I would ADD - whilst taking suitable precautions.

[cassa333]

Gender DYSPHORIA is a brain issue. That is the brain telling you that your gender is different to what it is.

So a Male with gender dysphoria will believe they are of the female gender and vis people versa for women with gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with ones gender. Radically, one believes your brain to be in the wrong gender.

It doesn’t mean gender is a social construct to be moulded to how one happens to feel at any given time.

Gender is one or the other.

[sevenOP]

cassa333, you appear to me to be in a nature/nurture like dilemma with the sex/gender words.

Having looked at the potential psycho babble of the Gender dysphoria on a few sites, I am none the clearer on Gender variance, gender nonconformity and gender identity disorder.

I tend to go with the Oxford English dictionary
"The word gender has been used since the 14th century as a grammatical term, referring to classes of noun designated as masculine, feminine, or neuter in some languages. The sense denoting biological sex has also been used since the 14th century, but this did not become common until the mid 20th century. Although the words gender and sex are often used interchangeably, they have slightly different connotations; sex tends to refer to biological differences, while gender more often refers to cultural and social differences and sometimes encompasses a broader range of identities than the binary of male and female"

albeit I am not as determined as you.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/gender

[Theland]

If Labour ever have a chance of winning anything, they need to woo the ordinary low paid workers, predominately white and straight who want THEIR lives improved, and who in the main don't give a toss about screaming minorities.

[1ozzy]

Wouldn't ordinary straight white low paid workers who didn't give a toss about screaming minorities be a screaming minority themselves?

[Deskdiary]

The fourth pledge states "Accept that trans-women are women, trans-men are men and non-binary people are non-binary."

I think I'm being pretty conservative by suggesting that 90% of the population struggle with the concept that a man born a man can become a woman, but it appears by not accepting this concept is to make the doubters 'transphobic' in RLB's eyes.

The woman's a nutcase.

[Jackdaw33]

The term used to be transsexual. When did transgender creep in?

[Old_Geezer]

Primary societies believed a lot of strange myths. Hardly surprising that an ability to change sex is one of them. There are even stories about beings changing into other animals, so why not changing sex too.

[Old_Geezer]

And more about how folk are trying to split the synonyms sex and gender; when clearly how one feels has little meaning save to note whether one's mind can accept and live with who one is, or sadly rejects it and claims to be the opposite or mixed up.