We Have Mob Rule, Covid Etc So What Would Really Help At A Time Like This?

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53009946
....I know lets have an inquiry! Unbelievable, what will an enquiry tell us? people died from a virus! Why is there a call for a public enquiry every time anything happens? madness!

[jim360]

What were the mistakes made, then, and how do you propose to identify them? And who should be in charge of that?

[woofgang]

pressed answer too soon. As has been said at the briefings quite a few times, yes there will be a time to look back and learn, yes, that learning should be made public and in fact its an intrinsic part of medicine and healthcare to wring every morsel of learning that can be got out of new situations and problems.....but the time to sit down and look back is not yet.

[jim360]

I can accept that, woofgang, although in that case the Government could commit to a Public Enquiry without committing to one *now*. It would take time to set up and decide the scope anyway, but there can be little harm in accepting that one should exist.

[mushroom25]

// It would take time to set up and decide the scope anyway //

…..not to mention the inevitable arguments over participants, eg not representative of the general population, those having vested interests, those who said something racist in 1947, etc

[jim360]

That too. But then, I'm not the one convening it. :/

[woofgang]

Jim that's not what this bloke and this organisation is demanding
"Relatives of 450 people who have died in the coronavirus pandemic are demanding an immediate public inquiry.
The families want an urgent review of "life and death" steps needed to minimise the continuing effects of the virus and a guarantee that documents relating to the crisis will be kept."..........
........."He added that a detailed public inquiry into the broader handling of the crisis in the UK must eventually take place, but right now he believes it is crucial that a limited inquiry starts as soon as possible.
"We need to learn the lessons immediately from what has gone wrong to get us to this point," he said."

[ToraToraTora]

they want someone to HD&Q, that's all.

[mushroom25]

// "We need to learn the lessons immediately from what has gone wrong to get us to this point," he said." //

we still can't yet do that, because decisions taken last week (or today) by governments or individuals can take up to a month to work through. relaxation of lockdown may yet prove to be a mistake, not to mention the effects of the recent hot weekend, and the protests since the end of may. and making everyone on the bus wear a mask may have a visible effect, but we won't know that until mid July.

[jim360]

I saw, and I'll agree that holding a public enquiry now is impossible even before you decide if it's desirable or not. I note that TTT is ruling out any form of public enquiry at all at any point ever. Which leads me back to the question(s) I posed earlier: given that you accept there have been flaws, what are these flaws? How do you propose to identify them? Who should be in charge of finding them?

Any PE that merely seeks to assign blame I can't support. But a PE that seeks to find answers that -- again -- we will *need* to find, in order to be ready (or readier) for next time, is clearly necessary and vital. At the risk of sounding too cliched, we owe it to our future selves not to hide any failings.

[ToraToraTora]

I might agree jim if there was any evidence we actually learned anything from the past. Just let the civil service do what they do best, go over it and create a manual for the next pandemic. Clearly this attempt at getting a PE is purely so they have someone to blame it on. Similar to Hillsborough for example.

[jim360]

The main benefit of a PE, if done properly*, is that it's impartial. I would suggest that even the Civil Service would struggle somewhat to hold itself properly to account.

*Clearly a massive "IF" but what else is there?

[KARL]

TTT 10.20, I think you are correct, sand is wasted on lawyers, better the traditional British use for the stuff: Head in it at least up to the shoulders, mustn't learn a thing because that might lead to changes, even improvements.

[Peter Pedant]

// we still can't yet do that, because decisions taken last week (or today) by governments or individuals can take up to a month to work through.//

yeah I think that is why there is no grounds for a public inquiry to point and say "oh yes of course" - -" it is obvious "

when it is far from obvious

and I had similar learning experiences as woof
Oh it was obvious that this and it was obvious that that
so I said
" Fine you can do airway work in small children in cas and show me how it is done"
oh heavens no - no no no. (*)
[ also some pretty sharp lying which I wont go into but I am sure you know what I mean woof]

(*) in covid emerg - all the juniors in one cohort were offered training and advanced trg in airway work . All said no thanks you must be joking - [and ran down the corridor like cows bolting screaming no no no]

[Peter Pedant]

// sand is wasted on lawyers,//

er you re saying pour it down their throats rather than bury them
and it takes less sand? - sort of sandboarding only its permanent!

[The First thing we do is kill all the lawyers - Shakey - Henry X pt Y'

[THECORBYLOON]

TTT, there's a lot to be looked into. Thousands of lives have been lost, hundreds of thousands of folk infected. Billions have been spent on trying to reduce the economic impact.

If Civil Servants were left to investigate that lot, how independent would they be?

How much power would they have to compel the production of evidence compared to a Judge-led Public Inquiry?

[Gromit]

An inquiry might find out why 9,000 Germans died of Covid-19, and 41,000 Brits.

There might be a good reason, and it would be good to find that out.
Only people with something to hide would be against knowing why we’ve had 32,000 more deaths than our European neighbour.

[dannyk13]

Gromit/An inquiry might find out why 9,000 Germans died of Covid-19, and 41,000 Brits.//
To what purpose?

[bhg481]

My experience of Germans is that, in general, they obey rules much more stringently than Brits do. If, for example, it can be shown that obeying the rules was the reason the Germans avoided more sufferers than we did then next time we can enforce the rules more strictly.

[vulcan42]

Not sure why people are clamouring for a public enquiry now.There was a woman on the news this morning who finished her statement with " we might learn something", I have a feeling she had one L too many.

[Mozz71]

//Gromit/An inquiry might find out why 9,000 Germans died of Covid-19, and 41,000 Brits.//
To what purpose?//

So the same mistakes are not made next time. There is a fair chance there may be a second wave. Would you rather we learned from our mistakes or would you rather another 41,000 die?