Proud Of Britain Yes

[fender62]

with all the loss of life tragedy, and schools jobs etc are you proud to british
thinking were te first to be vaccined and invention, harks back to, again
british inventions leading the world...

[jim360]

Maybe it's just because I'm too stuck on the meaning of pride that focuses on the achievements of individuals (either yourself or somebody personally close to you), but it just doesn't make sense in my head to be "proud" of being British. It wasn't an achievement, at least not one I personally had much to do with, to be born British. I certainly feel "pleased" to be British, and I suspect that this is a very similar feeling to what those who say they're "proud" mean by that.

The other problem is that if you feel proud of Britain's many historical achievements, should you not also take stock of the many times the nation got things wrong? It's not meant to be a downer, but it makes sense that if you have one you should also accept the other. It would, for example, be perfectly proper to acknowledge Britain's achievements in being among the first nations to end the slave trade and slavery, and then go further in trying to enforce that ban and impose it on others; but that also means acknowledging our active role in that crime against humanity for the previous few centuries. Indeed, I'd suggest this is also a far better approach than focusing only on the successes and "contextualising" the failures: it's far easier to appreciate when our nation has been great if you also recognise when it was not.

[naomi24]

The past is the past - and whatever happened in the past doesn't detract from a Britain that is great. Too much negativity in this country. No wonder people are so miserable!

[jim360]

Of course it's the past, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to learn from it, and also try to understand all of its context. And, as I say, it makes it easier to understand when our country was great if you recognise also when it was not. You can't have one without the other.

[naomi24]

I disagree. Whatever happened at the time was life and all the hand-wringing, sackcloth and ashes, and virtue signalling in the world won't change it. Beating ourselves up is utterly pointless.

[Khandro]

'Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
We shall fight on the seas and oceans,
We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
We shall fight on the beaches,
We shall fight on the landing grounds,
We shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
We shall fight in the hills;
We shall never surrender '

(and they didn't)

[naomi24]

Wash your mouth out, Khandro. How very dare you?! ;o)

[jim360]

I'm not talking about beating ourselves up, I'm talking about being honest about our past. Focusing on only the good is blinkered (as would only acknowledging the bad). You need both for a complete picture. Also, the only way to fix any mistakes that might have existed is to recognise them.

Of course we should acknowledge more than just the "great" of our past.

[naomi24]

If anything is blinkered it's focusing on the past. Onwards and upwards!

[Spicerack]

//Also, the only way to fix any mistakes that might have existed is to recognise them.//
Well, like most things of their time and now, rightly, considered wrong. We recognised, say, the slave trade, and 'fixed it' a long time ago.
Why are we being bombarded and guilt tripped with it today.
The only descendants of slaves in this country are indigenous or volunteered to come here.

[Chinajan]

Don't you live in Germany Khandro or am I misremembering? Not that if precludes you holding your views - I was just reminded by what you posted.

I agree with jim. This country has achieved many, many great things and there is much to be admired. I'm pro-British and regard myself as fortunate to have been born here. If you say that what happened in the past doesn't detract from Britain today then you can't logically on the other hand cite past achievements as a reason for your pride.

Be proud but with the knowledge that there have been and still are elements that are not a source of pride.

[Spicerack]

Nobody claimed we're perfect, China. But it was on the whole a good country to live in.

[TrevorThePug]

You only need to focus on the present to see that Britons are a miserable mess of disillusioned lost souls where half the population are happy to see British kids go hungry, black people and Muslims doing as they are told and refugees deported or drowned in dinghies.

This is why they have this innate tendency to focus on only a very small part of their history wearing rosey spectacles with romantic notions of a world war.

If the future is moving away from the current swathe of nationalistic hedonism with a dollop of racism, then maybe it will get better. By then most of the current breed of fascists will be dead, so all good.

[naomi24]

//If you say that what happened in the past doesn't detract from Britain today then you can't logically on the other hand cite past achievements as a reason for your pride.//

It’s entirely illogical to allow a past that reflects normal life as it was then to influence current thinking. There’s no point in dwelling on the horrors of slavery. We realised it was wrong when we abolished it a couple of centuries ago.

[TrevorThePug]

And righty so.

Followed by the removal of all the statues of racists. No point in dwelling on their "achievements".

[naomi24]

Very short sighted of you, Trevor.

[andy-hughes]

Trevor - // Followed by the removal of all the statues of racists. No point in dwelling on their "achievements". //

I believe that history can only be objectively viewed in context, and that means accepting the differences from the past to now, due to the constantly changing and evolving culture of the western world.

Of course, no-one today can condone slavery in any shape or form, but it must be accepted that it was the norm for its time, and retrospectively analysing it with modern attitudes with a view to 'apologising' is a complete waste of time.

Was slavery an evil trade? Yes of course it was, but in the examples of someone like Colston, his philanthropy played a large part in making Bristol the city it is today.

The only way for any society to move on is to embrace the good parts of its past, acknowledge the bad parts, and ensure that the second does not obscure the first by cherry-picking individuals and incidents and singling them out for retrogressive attention.

Am I pleased that Colston invested his money in the city of Bristol? Yes I am.

Am I sorry that the money was derived from slavery?
Yes I am.

Would tearing down the buildings and streets he financed make an ounce of difference to the peoples wronged by the slave trade?
No it would not.

It's necessary to have a realistic and balanced attitude to history.

As soon as we go back even a couple of generations, we find society's attitudes to many things utterly abhorrent, but we cannot change them,only acknowledge them, and appreciate the changes we have made in our attitudes.

Racial segregation was the norm within my lifetime, capital punishment still is - these will be eradicated and looked upon with horror by future generations, but they, like us, cannot change what happened before they were here, and to pretend that they, or we, can do that, is a pointless self-aggrandising dream, and i for one have no time for it.

[TrevorThePug]

Hi Andy, yes I agree with your last paragraph, hence my 'future' post above.

But we don't need such statues in public open spaces to learn about history. Unless it reminds racists not to be racist. Sadly the opposite seems to have happened.

[pixie374]

I'm glad I was born in England... although would probably feel the same in most other European countries.
I'm not "proud" of it, as I didn't achieve it. It was due to my ancestors. Any more than I am ashamed of anything they did either.

[andy-hughes]

Trevor - // But we don't need such statues in public open spaces to learn about history. //

No we don't - but that is not what they are for - statues are a reminder of the good works individuals have done for the benefit of the society around them - no statues are erected to commemorate evil deeds, that rather defeats the object of the exercise.

// Unless it reminds racists not to be racist. Sadly the opposite seems to have happened. //

People who are racist are unlikely to have their views adjusted either way by the sight of a statue - as I said, that's not the idea behind them.

Racism is best dealt with by education - not knee-jerk self-righteous ignorant mob vandalism.

[anneasquith]

I’m proud of being Scottish .