Homophobic Bigot Loses Case.......

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-56089759
...bet she wished she'd kept her trap shut.

[ToraToraTora]

"But in any case, it is impossible (literally) to brainwash an adult." - err how do you explain the anti vaxers then? The loonies that think the world is run by giant lizards? the countless loony tunes theories? Conspiracy theorists? Not to mention the standard religious mumbo jumbo believers? They didn't arrive at their views by scientific experiments did they?

[jim360]

It seems to me that you are defining incitement in a way that would implicitly make the actual perpetrator less guilty, but that's not true at all, and certainly isn't what is intended here. Of course a murderer is guilty of murder, whether or not somebody else told them to do it. Maybe, in certain extreme cases, it might be regarded as a mitigating circumstance that would affect the length of the sentence, although I'm not sure I can think of a specific scenario off the top of my head.

On the other hand, doing your best to persuade others to commit crime, on your behalf, is manifestly also a criminal offence. Sometimes it's called "conspiracy to commit X", other times it's "incitement", but in either case they have the same literal meaning of trying to persuade somebody else to break the law. Whether the incitement is successful or not is of course entirely the fault of the actual perpetrator; but that the attempt was made nonetheless, and legally and morally would deserve to be punished.

[pixie374]

Zacs, I don't know when it was first introduced tbh. But we do know now.
No, ttt. Nutters aren't brainwashed, it could be anything from stupidity, misunderstanding, stubbornness... you name it, really. What it isn't, is being forced to believe (or do) something against their will.

[jim360]

// Maybe, in certain extreme cases, it might be regarded as a mitigating circumstance that would affect the length of the sentence, although I'm not sure I can think of a specific scenario off the top of my head. //

Actually, I can (sort of) -- suppose the actual perpetrator had suffered from severe brain damage; although in that case it's diminished responsibility so the actual perpetrator would presumably not be held guilty of murder. It would be a clear perversion of justice, though, if the person who pulled the trigger couldn't be charged, but the person who placed the gun in their hand and told them to shoot were also not guilty of anything in law or in morality.

[pixie374]

It's the opposite, Jim. Perpetrators should be "more" responsible for what they do. Humans aren't helpless automatons that just do what they are told. Everyone can think for themselves.
Let's be honest, how many posts would it take on here, for me to convince you to commit a crime you don't want to? And whose fault would it be, if you decided to?

[ToraToraTora]

pixie, I assume you are talking about some technical definition of the word??

[pixie374]

Yes, mental issues, etc might affect it. But, here we are talking about legally sane adults.

[jim360]

// Let's be honest, how many posts would it take on here, for me to convince you to commit a crime you don't want to? And whose fault would it be, if you decided to?//

It would be my fault, and I'm not disputing that for a second. But it would also be your fault for trying to persuade me in the first place. I'm not sure why you're so averse to the idea that conspiracy to commit X, or incitement to X, is also a separate offence.

[ToraToraTora]

pixie: "Humans aren't helpless automatons that just do what they are told. Everyone can think for themselves. " - then why does religion exist? Surely that demonstrates the opposite, anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see it's mumbo jumbo yet many still go along with it? It may not technically be brainwashing but that's the effect.

[pixie374]

Brainwashing, ttt? It's never ever been successful. The army, especially, have done everything they can, and it isn't possible. Nobody has managed it.
If you commit a crime, as an adult... it is always, your own free choice.

[Zacs-Master]

'Zacs, I don't know when it was first introduced tbh. But we do know now.'

We know what?

'Humans aren't helpless automatons' No they're not but they can have most of their free will taken away by radicalisation and institutionalisation. They are therefore able to be incited to do things, which is, I guess, why the law recognises this.

[pixie374]

Because, Jim, it implies i have control over your behaviour, which I don't. And also implies you have less over yours. It's just physically inaccurate.

[jim360]

It makes no such implication, though.

[ToraToraTora]

pixie, you are talking about some technical definition. I'm talking about the day to day effect, "brainwashing" is the wrong term perhaps but people believe all manner of old pony with very little evidence or reason, what should we call that? Brain bypassing? you suggest a word.

[pixie374]

Ttt, that was my point, not yours :-). It's a little like a terrorist blaming a religious book for the crime he committed. An abdication of personal responsibility. Nobody is entitled to try to blame someone or something else for what they chose to do. All sane adults are 100% responsible for their own actions.

[jno]

thanks for the link, jim, but I'm still unclear whether it specifies in the script that the character's a lesbian or not. Kissing another woman may be a hint or it may be nothing at all; a lot depends on how it's depicted.

You're right no doubt that she should have read it. But if she'd appeared in it before, and seen nothing in it she objected to, there's no special reason why she would.

[pixie374]

Conditioning? The point is not really the word used, just the emphasis that it is entirely free choice. You cannot force someone to believe something they don't, against their will.

[Zacs-Master]

'Nobody is entitled to try to blame someone or something else for what they chose to do'

Yes they are otherwise 'incitement' in law wouldn't exist and neither would temporary insanity, or diminished responsibility.

[ToraToraTora]

ok, conditioning, I'll go with that.

[Zacs-Master]

'You cannot force someone to believe something they don't, against their will.'

I think you need to do some reading up on cults, and cult leaders, Pix.